Electric Supercharger - Page 6 - Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum
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#51 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 02:28 PM
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Re: Electric Supercharger

i think it's good info greg. what's your background, mechanical engineer?

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#52 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 02:33 PM
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Re: Electric Supercharger

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Greggry previously said: View Post
I am not positive on the exact number but I would suspect 1% to 3% of power output. Every compressed valve spring will return energy to the cam. If you were to pull the spark plugs out of a motor, and turn it over, it doesn't take that much force to rotate, and most of that force is from friction of the pistons in the bore, and the main bearings. The camshaft alone when coated with oil really wont eat that much power.

Modern overhead cams put the lobes right on valve spring buckets, which means the only friction to rob power is the cam bearings (which are oiled), the friction between the lobe and the spring bucket (oiled), the internal spring friction depending on type, the valve guide friction, and the timing chain/belt. With some compressed springs helping turn the cam, and everything being oiled, there isn't that much loss. The main bearings and piston rings will eat much more power then the cam.
My opinion would be that if somebody did go from that parasitic load of 1% to 3% to .5% that would be a gain in efficiency, that don't appear to be much but over 100,000 miles, it adds up.

Your comment about running a engine at 100%, turning a generator, then running drive motors at the wheels is happening as we speak.

Construction equipment manufacturers are saying this gains 10 to 30 percent fuel efficiency
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#53 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 02:56 PM
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Re: Electric Supercharger

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i think it's good info greg. what's your background, mechanical engineer?
Nope I just am a beer drinking idiot from Milwaukee I just read and experiment a lot. I have failed so many times trying things its unreal. Trust me, I was the guy putting leaf blowers on Honda engines with little success.

Quote:
Your comment about running a engine at 100%, turning a generator, then running drive motors at the wheels is happening as we speak.

Construction equipment manufacturers are saying this gains 10 to 30 percent fuel efficiency
Your absolutely correct, and it has been going on for a very long time. Prime mover locomotives have been using this tech forever now. Big mining equipment much the same. Mainly where engine size doesn't matter do you see this.

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My opinion would be that if somebody did go from that parasitic load of 1% to 3% to .5% that would be a gain in efficiency, that don't appear to be much but over 100,000 miles, it adds up.
It absolutely adds up, however the costs make it not worth while. You wont be able to cut much of the loss inside a engine at this point. We are at the limit of reducing friction and even a 0 friction engine wouldn't give much back. The best we can do is have a hybrid system that only runs the engine when 100% needed, and when the engine is run its run at as close to 100% efficient as we can. However this will never be as efficient as a pure electric vehicle. A efficient electric motor only wastes 5 to 10% of the energy to heat. The motor only needs the amount of power that’s required, there is no Air/fuel ratio to attempt to maintain, no quality of gas/energy density that could change, no change in atmosphere to compensate for, etc. 100% of the technology already exists to have unbelievable electric vehicles, except for the power production/storage dilemma. If we had megawatt power packs that would fit in a small area of a trunk of a average car, that would recharge in 10 minutes to a hour, the gas engine would be history.

Ripped from a website, and is a good example of why a prius gets good gas mpg:

Quote:
Methods and Technology for Improving Internal Combustion Engine Efficiency
The practical methods and new technology that help in increasing the efficiency of the internal combustion engines are as follows:

•Regenerative braking: As braking a car or automobile wastes the kinetic energy in the form of heat, regenerative braking is ideal method when you want to brake your vehicle to control speed (like when going downhill). In this electromagnetic braking is done as small motors absorb the energy and convert it into battery energy.
•Variable Injection Timing: This is already used in Maritime engines. At low loads and speeds, the injection is advanced allowing same mean effective pressure to be maintained. This not only increases the efficiency of the engine as the scavenge pressure is maintained, it also allows for lower quality fuel to be burnt.
•Variable valve timing: In this method the exhaust and inlet valves opening and closing time can be varied, affecting the efficiency of the engine. This method can increase the efficiency by 4 to 5%.
•Cutting off cylinders: In large engines in cruising or going downhill, half of the cylinders can be cut off thus reducing fuel demand. It cannot be done on small engines as the engine would become rough.
•Turbochargers: A turbocharger is an exhaust gas recovery device that increases boost air pressure thereby optimizing combustion. It increases efficiency by 7 to 8%.
•Direct Fuel Injection: In previous engines, the fuel was mixed with air and injected, but nowadays fuel is directly injected into the combustion chamber and mixing takes place according to the profile of the combustion chamber. It increases efficiency by 11 to 13%.
•Twin spark plugs and multiple injectors: As the flame front starts from the spark plug and proceeds outward, some fuel remains unburnt as ejected before the flame front can reach it. In a twin spark plug cylinder two flame fronts are created, causing better combustion.
•Using the correct viscosity of lubricating oil, as viscous oil can result in losses due to friction.
•Integrated starter and generator systems: In this system the engine is immediately stopped when idling and started when the accelerator is pressed.

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#54 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 03:11 PM
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Re: Electric Supercharger

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Your absolutely correct, and it has been going on for a very long time. Prime mover locomotives have been using this tech forever now. Big mining equipment much the same. Mainly where engine size doesn't matter do you see this.
This new/old technology can be seen if you google Caterpillar D7E. Same company owns EMD, previously owned by GM. Locomotive engines
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#55 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 03:58 PM
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Re: Electric Supercharger

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They used the wankel on the rx8, but are not producing it right now. Wankels have a few major issues. They output a lot of bad emissions, they drink fuel, and they have sealing issues. Piston rings are very effective at controling and keeping pressure inside the cylinder. Wear is non existant because you have oil being fed to them, so the cylinder walls/rings don't wear excessively. In a wankel the apex seal has to keep the pressure inside its combustion area, without bleeding anything past. However as far as I know there is no lubrication of any significance to the apex seal. If you splashed oil on it the oil would get burned in the combustion process and go right out the tail pipe. So they used self lubricating material that is high temp and extremely durable. However there are significant limitations still. I would wonder how well they would run on E85 since the fuel is more of a lubricant then gas. The 10mpg you would get would turn people away for sure though.



Not only do you have wear to the apex seal to worry about, but wearing of the blocks inner walls will give you a unusable engine. They don't make oversized rotors, so boring the block walls out bigger (however you would do that) isn't a option. A bigger seal to span the gap would blow out even easier so thats a problem too. Not to mention the sides of the rotor will eventually wear and thus cause significant blow by.

Great idea, makes a ton of power for the physical size, but not worth it in the end.
AUTOS: Mazda Builds Last Rotary Engine
The article states that we may see a return of the rotary engine as a drive for a generator. Rotary engines have good torque, ideal for turning generators.


I also saw recently where the emissions issue had been improved by moving the ports closer to the center of rotation.

However, the other legitimate issues that you raised are yet to be overcome.
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#56 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 04:48 PM
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Re: Electric Supercharger

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westtexas86004 previously said: View Post
AUTOS: Mazda Builds Last Rotary Engine
The article states that we may see a return of the rotary engine as a drive for a generator. Rotary engines have good torque, ideal for turning generators.


I also saw recently where the emissions issue had been improved by moving the ports closer to the center of rotation.

However, the other legitimate issues that you raised are yet to be overcome.
The wankel has a lot of advantages that are really cool. The only one I got to play with was a RC plane engine believe it or not. This is the modern version of the one I played with years ago. Pretty damn cool.
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#57 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 05:22 PM
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Re: Electric Supercharger

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The wankel has a lot of advantages that are really cool. The only one I got to play with was a RC plane engine believe it or not. This is the modern version of the one I played with years ago. Pretty damn cool.
Your post about airplane engines jogged my memory. I believe that Dr. Moller's flying car uses a very compact and lightweight version of this same motor.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...m-reality.html

Cool stuff!
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#58 (permalink) Old 02-27-2013, 05:53 PM
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Re: Electric Supercharger

I've owned Mazda cars for thirty years, including RX7 and RX8 rotaries and piston-engined Miatas.

Rotary engines do not have good torque profiles and would not make a good engine for, say, an off-road vehicle - or for that matter, a DD in traffic. What makes a rotary engine a good match for an electrical generator in an automotive application is the super-smooth/quick climb to steady high-RPM output and characteristics - which gives certain transitional, generation, and durability advantages. Couple those advantages with alternative fuels (a rotary engine can be set up to burn different kinds), and you might have a new application.

Apex seals are lubricated from the sump, and motor oil is flung into the combustion chamber to be burned off with the fuel - which is why rotary engines are dirty, plugs foul regularly, and oil levels need to be checked and topped off regularly. (The seals are also self-lubricating because under certain driving situations oil lubrication can be cut by a significant amount.) Inner wall wear is virtually nil; apex seals wear out instead and can be replaced. Port redesign, injector system design, and tuning allowed Mazda to keep up with emission standards in California and Europe, but new European standards required redesign investments that Mazda could not meet - that and poor sales meant the end of the RX8.

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#59 (permalink) Old 02-27-2013, 07:18 PM
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Re: Electric Supercharger

Could magnets ever power a forced induction system? It would still be parasitic in that the magnates require electricity to power (and would be heavy to boot); however, I imagine that much like modern hyper-trains, it would be extremely efficient.

I agree with FJNewb in that technology will eventually make productive electric FI systems a reality (they may not be relavent when it happens though). Moore's law applies to more than computing power.

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#60 (permalink) Old 02-28-2013, 07:32 AM
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Re: Electric Supercharger

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Moore's law applies to more than computing power.
Not necessarily. Moore's Law has an excellent record when applied to the physics of research, development, and exploitation where "very small" technologies are concerned (the quantum, molecular, and/or transistorized level of digital tech, for example) over the last three decades. Moore's Law, applied to "industrial level" items like automobiles or airplanes, has been much less successful - except where digital tech is involved in those larger systems. Why? Because - contrary to "common sense" perceptions - it's much tougher to improve macro-scale systems than micro-scale systems.

So no, I don't expect to see the same record in automotive FI (compared to computer tech) in the foreseeable future.

On whether magnets might be of use in FI - yes, but only if you're inducting ionized plasma at extremely high or low temperatures, at tens of thousands of degrees or near absolute zero - which the magnets can actually manipulate with efficiency. I suppose it's possible to use such a set-up for injection of extremely small amounts of superheated plasma in some sort of pre-burn chamber in the piston chamber....

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