Moab Closures - AYL episode on ABC TV

[SloPoke]

For those attending the Salt Lake City Comment meeting tomorrow....

here are some last minute instructions:
As a final reminder the meeting place is at “Crawlers” located at 3793 S State Street. You will know you have the right place because Bryon (Team Crawlers 1 form RME) will have his crawler parked out front. Please enter from state State street not through the parking lot of Crawlers but the side street directly to the North of the club. You will be greeted by someone in an orange vest who will number your vehicle and give you some directions as to where to stage.

If you have a CB please turn it to channel 7. As we will be making announcements though out the staging process via CB. Please let other around you know what is being said if they do not have a CB.

Once you have been staged another person will come around with a clip board and ask you to fill out some basic information. I would like to provide the BLM with a formal list of attendee’s.

We will have police assistance in entering the road way. Stay close to your rig cause when it is time to leave the police will block traffic in the eastern most lane and allow our entire group to enter the roadway. This will need to take place fairly quickly so when we say go follow the flagger and exit quickly (but safely).

There will be a police presence from SSL up to 2100 S at which point SL PD will take over. Again remember they will not be blocking intersection so please obey all traffic laws.

At this time I have arranged for media coverage from ABC, and Fox 13 on site and NBC will most likely be waiting at the capital to film us as we circle. Steve Jackson has contacted AYL and they have said they will send a camera along if they can.

Don’t forget your letters. We can drop them off at one of the tables at the meeting.

I had a meeting yesterday with SWCA and the library. They are glad so many are coming but they are concerned about crowd control. PLEASE lets all be on our best behavior. Be civil and respect the fact that there are other meetings going on at the library.

The format is 14 6’ tables stretching from the hall into the conference room. Each “station” will have information about a different part of the RMP and will have a representative present to answer any questions.

Here are today’s additions to the participant list bringing our grand total to 112.

Marlin S (Lone Peak 4 Wheelers)
Tim and Lisa A (U4WDA)
Jojo (U4x4C)
Mountain Yoats bringing 3
Matt S +1 (Unaffiliated)

This is go time everyone. We have a lot of eyes and ears on this so lets be sure to show up and be on our best behavior.

Again suggested dress for the event (not mandatory) business casual to help break some of the stereo types about our community. (Even if at heart they all apply to me)

[alpinist]

I will definately make my comments. I have climbed, mountain biked, backpacked, camped, vacationed, taught Wilderness First Responder courses and off-roaded in Moab. I believe that riding on most of the designated trails does not impact my experience doing the other hobbies. I like the mixed environment.

The damage is caused by going off trails, making campfires everywhere, leaving beer cans, etc, etc, etc. I admit that I don't see trash, campfires and soil destruction on any of the backpacking or climbing areas but that doesn't mean that "real", dedicated off-roaders are part of the problem. It just means that the uneducated, inconsiderate, foolish, white (or any color) trash also share access to the back country in their trucks. One weekend party of these type of people can leave an area destroyed for a long, long time. We just happen to be grouped together and stereotyped with these people.

pathrat previously said:

I have complained plenty about personal irresponsibility and am not real pleased about paying for the sins of those who demonstrate bad behavior on the trails. I'm thinking of how to deter such behavior. The problem is, when people are idiots on the trails, there are no consequences specific to the offender. I would like to suggest consequences to those who do not belong on trails and are caught being disrespectful when I add my comments to the BLM, and have that suggestion be of low-cost to the managing agency so it may be more palatable to adoption and enforcement. Any suggestions? Hotline? Website? Record the plates and report the offense? Photo proof leads to being banned?

Yes, yes, and yes. The people that hurt the majority of us deserve to pay the price.

[pathrat]

First-
SloPoke- thank you for what you are doing in Salt Lake, you and everyone going.

Second-
Alpinist, I have heard from my mom, who lives in Salt Lake, backpacks, hikes and is married to a summer Forest Service volunteer. She helped with the campground clean-up and has developed quite a disliking for those who think beer bottles can burn in a fire-ring. Those areas are open to all. I have picked up garbage from all kinds of areas. Trash is found where the trashy ones go, regardless of how they get there. I just felt the need to rant on that. I agree with your assessment of how the few make us look.

[1/2mill90]

pathrat previously said:

I have complained plenty about personal irresponsibility and am not real pleased about paying for the sins of those who demonstrate bad behavior on the trails. I'm thinking of how to deter such behavior. The problem is, when people are idiots on the trails, there are no consequences specific to the offender. I would like to suggest consequences to those who do not belong on trails and are caught being disrespectful when I add my comments to the BLM, and have that suggestion be of low-cost to the managing agency so it may be more palatable to adoption and enforcement. Any suggestions? Hotline? Website? Record the plates and report the offense? Photo proof leads to being banned?

I don't know what all the details are but I do know if they catch someone that they will ticket them. My friend was gunning on a trail a few years ago during Safari and a guy in a Blazer started doing donuts off the trail. The trail officials tried to talk to him and he acted like a jerk towards them. The trail leader called the Sheriffs office and they told them to have someone wave their jacket so the tail gunner did and the sheriff landed in a helicopter and proceeded to issue tickets. Obviously this isn't something that could happen all the time with the expense for the helicopter but it does show that they can do something in the right situation. They said that when the guy was first talked to that he said he could go and do whatever the **** he wanted and when the sheriff landed he was falling all over himself saying no one told him it was wrong.

I would think if pictures or video could be taken of someone doing something that shouldn't be done and if it showed their faces enough to be identified along with a license number that they might be able to do something.

[pathrat]

While my boyfriend says, "frontier justice!", those of us who do abide by the rules of the trail will need to take a more active role to 'enlighten' those who do not behave. I am not suggesting that you who may be reading this are not already providing instruction to those you encounter whose trail riding will ruin for the rest of us.

I would like to at least propose a thread or special section where we may post information about the off-road offenders in our area. If we have a repeat dirtbag in our area, we may be able to provide a report to the BLM, Forest Service or to which ever bureau has jurisdiction. Moderators? Your thoughts?

I will also suggest this in my comments to the BLM in my comments on Moab land use.

[highbeams]

The plans you are looking at, and the entire process they are going through, is a system they are required to do, and that is every X many of years, they have to present a plan(s) for review of what they will do to manage the land for the next X many of years. We went through this process 2 years ago for our beloved San Bernardino National Forest.
The sierra club has vast resources, and usually presents a version to be considered, it usually is kinda extreme and they lobby hard for it.
They will have meetings all around an area in review for locals to voice support of different plans, These meetings are where a lot of the decision making happens as the BLM listens to each intelligently presented argument.
And there is the key, when you go to talk at one of these meetings, you need to have your ducks in a row. You will be given a chance to speak and others will have their chance, so you need to be able to present fact in a clear and concise manner. Knowing about public speaking helps a lot.
One of the strongest anti access forces in the Moab fight is SEWA, or Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance. It would take a short hop to their website to find they will never be satisfied till any form of mechanized travel is eliminated from the area. They were the force behind the infamous List of businesses that signed a petition to close Moab, Most of the guys on the list did not know they were signing a petition but thought they were signing a welcome letter to the new governor. Using hoodwink tactics, they got a lot of businesses that depend on the Moab Off highway business to sign a petition that would mean a huge loss of revenue for them.
That fight was a tight and short one, as soon as these businesses found what they had signed, as it was published in the Salt Lake city newspaper, they started recanting like mad. Mention of that list still brings up hard feelings around town.
Show of support, calling the state Senators, well thought out and presented discussion all help in these planning sessions. Wild behavior does not. On of the biggest helps is to have the room filed with a lot of guys who will clap whenever a pro access guy speaks, and be silent when a anti access guy speaks. This shows support for the access guys in a adult manner, one that can be understood to mean votes count.
I hope as much of the area can be kept open as possible.
Be prepared though, for a lot of pictures of rock buggies climbing walls of rock to be displayed, The greenies love to take pictures of them, even it they are in legal area. One of the biggest reactions they get from the public is showing rock buggies as they leave huge scars of rubber in places that rightly argued they would have no reason to have to go. They point out You could go around but instead the climb these areas leaving rubber imprints and scars that stay for years.

[Air2air]

Thank you Jim for a good overview of what we are fighting against. It helps to have it broken down down that way so that we can divide and conquer.

- There is no debating that the rock buggies do leave major marks. And yes that is politically damaging to us, because it is actual physical damage. It is also much more dramatic to see in a presentation. If I did not wheel I would not be too thrilled seeing it either.

- I'd like to hear from Sean K. how the buggies deal with that and if there are already sound policies in place that the public generally agrees with. I am complaining just about the political appearance, not the activity of course.

- Since buggies are an extremely small fraction of the overall damage, is it possible to quantify and report on damage and then compare it to some allowable maximum?

[highbeams]

Using the buggies, is like the picture of the seal with the club on it's head.
The green groups know the value of a picture, after all they are truly worth a thousand words. They know a picture of a family in a SUV with a cute 6 year old child enjoying a picnic by a lake is never going get anyone upset, but the buggy pictures do get the blood boiling fast, so they use them. I know most buggy operators are going use them properly and in areas they are allowed to, but the anti access groups could care less where they are used, just that they have proof they are destroying the pristine wilderness.
those are their tactics, and they use them well.
One of the best ways to counter that is with adult behavior and not yelling, especially the audience. A very well presented talk can be totally discounted by the audience being unruly with members of the opposite side. Make sure everyone acts as an adult and let the other side look like idiots with wild accusations, boos, chanting to block out presentations etc. Letting them do such, and being reserved gets the officials listening to you, getting loud and boisterous only gets them to want to have the meeting end as they do not want to listen to it.

[1 Bored Clerk]

highbeams previously said:

Be prepared though, for a lot of pictures of rock buggies climbing walls of rock to be displayed, The greenies love to take pictures of them, even it they are in legal area. One of the biggest reactions they get from the public is showing rock buggies as they leave huge scars of rubber in places that rightly argued they would have no reason to have to go. They point out You could go around but instead the climb these areas leaving rubber imprints and scars that stay for years.

I've seen this tactic used a lot. What never seems to be brought up is the fact that no one needs to be out there. Not one single person HAS to be way out in the middle of nowhere walking, biking, driving...etc. Hikers spend all their time shutting down recreational areas for any other sport and fail to realize that their own pursuit is just as frivolous as any other. How about mountain climbers? They hike...they must be good stewards of the land? Okay...look at all the feces on Mt. Hood during late season climbing...or all the crap that had been left behind on Mt. Everest (I hope both have been cleaned up in a similar fashion to 4 wheel groups doing trail cleanups?) Talk about destroying a place that no one needs to be... Once all the trails are shut down to everything but hikers, what's to stop a more extreme group (like displaced 4 wheelers, and mtn bikers) lobbying to close areas to any human access at all? Then hear the wailing and moaning from the hikers about how necessary their access is...and how these lands are public and therefore warrant public access. The whole thing makes me sick. If these people were really concerned about impacting the environment, they wouldn't drive at all...they wouldn't cover themselves head to toe in Gore-Tex, Polypropelene, Nylon, Spandex or any other horribly toxic material to produce...yet they do.

Now, if someone could help me with this ladder...I'm getting vertigo on top of this soapbox...

Btw...From my limited experience with governmental proceedures, I think Highbeams really knows what he's talking about with regard to presentation and tactics at public meetings.

[MoabRat]

Highbeams, Clerk, great posts. My thoughts exactly. Thanks for taking the time!