I think it's way more than what we're seeing here...how many soccer moms and mall crawlers are checking for cracking body panels??? Not many I would assume...
Most people never open the hood.
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I think it's way more than what we're seeing here...how many soccer moms and mall crawlers are checking for cracking body panels??? Not many I would assume...
Well, if you just compare the number of members that have seen this thread to the number of members that have an issue I think it will give us a better idea and I think that number would be smaller than we think.
..Too bad we can't poll all the members..
I do agree though that this ratio will increase with respect to time.
I believe this is some of the most encouraging news we've seen so far!
Finally, an indication Toyota and people in the know are really looking into the specific issue! If true, this is big!
BTW, I have speculated that the fixes currently being performed are very possibly a band-aid solution to the problem. I sincerely hope I'm wrong about that, and, I hope my comments along those lines did not offend anybody, especially those of you who are currently getting your rigs worked on.
Having said that, I would like to personally thank those same folks, those pioneers who are taking the lead in this thing. If your old panels are, in fact, being sent off for analysis, you are an integral part of the solution, whatever that solution ultimately proves to be. All of us will owe all of you a debt of gratitude when all of this is resolved. So, thank you very much!
Well, if you just compare the number of members that have seen this thread to the number of members that have an issue I think it will give us a better idea and I think that number would be smaller than we think.
..Too bad we can't poll all the members..
I do agree though that this ratio will increase with respect to time.
Poor attempt at science...
The number you're looking at is the number of times the thread has been accessed. I subscribed to this thread when it was only a few pages long. Ever since then, I update my reading on it every time I log in, and see that new posts have been added, which is about three times a day, and sometimes more. Therefore, I alone contribute at least three to that total, daily. Everyone else (many dozens) who have subscribed contribute similarly. Some contribute substantially more because they're forum addicts and just click on links obsessively.
There is no way to use the poll stats or the forum stats to generate a numerator or a denominator in any useful fraction that would tell you the percent of FJ's suffering this or that.
This is not a reasonable random cross section
The participants in the conversation self - select.
There is no one-to-one correspondence between participants and complaints!
I remain unconcerned about the existence of minor crumple in a designated crumple zone in terms of whether or not its a safety issue. If an FJ crashes, this thin sheet metal is going to crumple. PERIOD.
The fact that some vehicles actually rip is a bit more concerning, but not from a structural/safety standpoint. Again... if you ram this thing hard enough that you crush the FRAME, you're going to crush the paper thin sheet metal JUST FINE. The concern is the longevity and normally hassle-free expectation that goes with a Toyota.
There's been more than a little mass hysteria going on around here and I've chosen not to swim against the stream most of the time, but I'm chiming back in here to refocus on the non random nature of the "data".
The number you're looking at is the number of times the thread has been accessed. I subscribed to this thread when it was only a few pages long. Ever since then, I update my reading on it every time I log in, and see that new posts have been added, which is about three times a day, and sometimes more. Therefore, I alone contribute at least three to that total, daily. Everyone else (many dozens) who have subscribed contribute similarly. Some contribute substantially more because they're forum addicts and just click on links obsessively.
There is no way to use the poll stats or the forum stats to generate a numerator or a denominator in any useful fraction that would tell you the percent of FJ's suffering this or that.
This is not a reasonable random cross section
The participants in the conversation self - select.
There is no one-to-one correspondence between participants and complaints!
I remain unconcerned about the existence of minor crumple in a designated crumple zone in terms of whether or not its a safety issue. If an FJ crashes, this thin sheet metal is going to crumple. PERIOD.
The fact that some vehicles actually rip is a bit more concerning, but not from a structural/safety standpoint. Again... if you ram this thing hard enough that you crush the FRAME, you're going to crush the paper thin sheet metal JUST FINE. The concern is the longevity and normally hassle-free expectation that goes with a Toyota.
There's been more than a little mass hysteria going on around here and I've chosen not to swim against the stream most of the time, but I'm chiming back in here to refocus on the non random nature of the "data".
This ain't science.
BellyDoc, If you look at some of my previous posts I was one of the first to demonstrate that the number of views on this particular subject are not directly related to the number of people who have seen this. I understand that each time you click you add a view.
Still, my point being that if we could somehow sample all the FJ owners and ask how many have a problem, the turnout would be lower than we think.
..if you *had* data like that you could help cure some of the mass hysteria..
Also, I understand the idea about how insignificant the sheetmetal is. But I don't think the NHTSA will see it that way.
The manner in which the crumple zone fails must have some direct relationship to the impact that is observed on you and the rest of the vehicle. If they were so insignificant Toyota would not have put them there.
I remain unconcerned about the existence of minor crumple in a designated crumple zone in terms of whether or not its a safety issue. If an FJ crashes, this thin sheet metal is going to crumple. PERIOD.
The fact that some vehicles actually rip is a bit more concerning, but not from a structural/safety standpoint. Again... if you ram this thing hard enough that you crush the FRAME, you're going to crush the paper thin sheet metal JUST FINE. The concern is the longevity and normally hassle-free expectation that goes with a Toyota.
Slight bulges wouldn't bother me. It's the fact that the bulges tend to end up as rips. And my biggest concern is that the minor rips we're seeing on FJC's now, will eventually look like the mangled, nasty rips I've seen on Prado's. I don't want to open my hood and see that *#$%...I don't care if it's structural, cosmetic, safe, whatever...it's unsat...
Also, I understand the idea about how insignificant the sheetmetal is. But I don't think the NHTSA will see it that way.
I tend to believe the NHTSA won't be too concerned about this problem.
My admittedly limited understanding of crumple zones in automobiles tells me they are basically designed to crumple so the passenger compartment doesn't. In other words, they are designed to be weak under certain conditions.
In a significant enough front-end collision, the crumple zones in our FJ's are gonna crumple whether they are bulged, cracked or perfectly straight.
I do, however, wonder if changes to the design of the crumple zones may potentially require Toyota to perform significant testing, etc. If so, this may in part be why it has taken and/or will take Toyota a long time to sort the problem out.
Slight bulges wouldn't bother me. It's the fact that the bulges tend to end up as rips. And my biggest concern is that the minor rips we're seeing on FJC's now, will eventually look like the mangled, nasty rips I've seen on Prado's. I don't want to open my hood and see that *#$%...I don't care if it's structural, cosmetic, safe, whatever...it's unsat...
[quote=Willi-P;635216]In a significant enough front-end collision, the crumple zones in our FJ's are gonna crumple whether they are bulged, cracked or perfectly straight.
QUOTE]
Please,
You are correct in the broad term that they are designed to crumple, they are designed as a complete piece working in sync so at the front the design is a little weaker/softer and so on to the stiffest/hardest part at the back.
Imagine compressing a spring its soft to start with hard at the end.
It is that absorption of energy that protects you and slowly decelerates you. It is the whole thing linked together that allows this. With it disconnected (cracked) or already starting to deform, you will get all the energy in one spot, (weakest link=crack bulge tear) In some instances it may not matter, but it does lessen the performance of the crumple zone. By how much we do not know, I bet Toyota will soon though.
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