Reasons why CBers should consider HAM Radio

[toddunderscore]

1leglance previously said:

Oh and on the seriousness thing...well that is just me

And I would note that Lance can still be the life of a party. As long as he brings cigars and tells us how they should be smoked. I now feel like I know more about cigars than Ham radio... which is good. Because I'll more likely buy a "yard cigar" than a Ham radio.

[Chatsworth 818 FJ]

1leglance previously said:

Hey Sean,
I would rather keep my responses here in this thread because there are lots of folks who feel the same way you do and also lots of folks who follow your lead.

Really I think I made a mistake in my analagy that I used. I have read some of your post on trail use/closure and I think if I were frame the Amateur Radio thing within that framework you might understand it better, maybe not agree (and that is fine) but understand.

So lets look at it like this..
You are going out on a trail run that will go onto Az State Trust Land, or Sedona or Bulldog and a fellow shows up without whatever permit is req.

You mention to him, "Hey you need a permit to go with us, it is cheap and easy to get, why didn't you do it?" (kind of like the Ham lic)

His reply is "So what, these are public lands and I can use'em, I pay taxes" (like when folks want to use any radio on any freq).

Your reply might be " Yeah but the State needs to control access to limit trash and damage, also those fees go towards trail upkeep" (like how the FCC makes sure the cops have a clear channel and truckers aren't stepping on NASA comm)

So he says "What a waste of time and energy, you just want these trails to yourself and to not let others run them. What are you gonna do report me?"
(kind of like when folks get mad that hams police themselves)

Trying to be friendly you mention "Well no but if enough folks just do whatever they want then the Gov, or enviro groups have an excuse to close the trail to us" (like the fact that comercial interest would love more chunks of the radio spectrum and hams would be the ones who lost out)

So this little exchange could be about radios or trails as the ideas are the same...a group following the rules to protect a resource and enjoy it at the same time.
I know you can't stand trash on the trails (trash talk on the air)
I know you explain how stacking rocks is bad (Tx out of band)
I know you explain that a person should have the right equip to run a certain level trail (right radio and lic to Tx)
So I know you understand protecting a limited resource from waste, abuse, and having it taken away.

I really think if you have the same frame of mind about ham as you do about trail conservation then it might click...not enough to make you want to be an amateur operator but enough that you mind understand why things are like they are.
I do agree that there are lots of crabby ol' men in Ham Radio and as a newbie I have been roasted over the coals..that is 1 reason I am trying to help other new offroader hams just like we help other new offroaders.

Of course I haven't touched on the value of emerg comm during diaster, search and rescue, storm watch, long distance comm to home/help when out of cell range or lots of other uses.

This thread was about why cb folks should take a look at Ham radio, kind of like looking at a single axle conversion....maybe it is for you maybe not....but we can all agree to see both sides of it without making fun of the other camp.

Oh and on the seriousness thing...well that is just me

Lance you are comparing apples to oranges, unlawful use of trails damages trails and could kill wildlife. Money for permits goes to maintenance and to pay rangers that patrol it.
1. Me going on 2 -meter and belching isnt going to harm anything except maybe someones feelings.
2. I think the FCC has two people west of the Mississippi that even monitor or respond to violations.
This isnt the 1950 when you had to show couples on TV in separate beds, HAM needs to realise its modern times. Maybe if you let some guys like me have fun on a small band of 2 meter, HAM wouldnt be a dieing hobby, hardly any kids are interested anymore.
I was about to actually get me licence when we had 147.435 in LA. But the repeater was shut down by the ethics police. The only channel I found entertaining hurt the million parts of the other bandwidth i guess.

[Savvyav]

I want a ham so i can use the antenna(s) as a stun whip on spotters!!!

I'd have to change my SN to numba one stunna

[shane4x4]

So....looks like we're up to at least 23 non-hams that are interested.
Sweet

[KD7NAC_07FJ]

Chatsworth 818 FJ previously said:

Lance you are comparing apples to oranges, unlawful use of trails damages trails and could kill wildlife. Money for permits goes to maintenance and to pay rangers that patrol it.

If you are transmitting on frequencies you are not allowed to you can get people killed. Or like I mentioned earlier about the individual who lost his ticket, about $6000 of gear, a $250,000 fine and is now on 5 years probation with a federal record. All because he though it would be cool to transmit 90+w on an AM frequency that just happened to be close enough to the air traffic tower frequency to cause a communications disruption and two aircraft to nearly collide.

Or how about the jokers at SeaFair a few years back that got a hold of a radio that had the same frequencies as our rescue channel. Coughing, burping, singing - having a great ol' time. Mean while there was a man drowning on the log boom and we couldn't hear the call. He died.

I wish to hell those people got caught.

I think his analogies are right on the money if not less pointed then they should be.

[Sean K.]

1leglance previously said:

Hey Sean,
I would rather keep my responses here in this thread because there are lots of folks who feel the same way you do and also lots of folks who follow your lead.

Really I think I made a mistake in my analagy that I used. I have read some of your post on trail use/closure and I think if I were frame the Amateur Radio thing within that framework you might understand it better, maybe not agree (and that is fine) but understand.

So lets look at it like this..
You are going out on a trail run that will go onto Az State Trust Land, or Sedona or Bulldog and a fellow shows up without whatever permit is req.

You mention to him, "Hey you need a permit to go with us, it is cheap and easy to get, why didn't you do it?" (kind of like the Ham lic)

His reply is "So what, these are public lands and I can use'em, I pay taxes" (like when folks want to use any radio on any freq).

Your reply might be " Yeah but the State needs to control access to limit trash and damage, also those fees go towards trail upkeep" (like how the FCC makes sure the cops have a clear channel and truckers aren't stepping on NASA comm)

So he says "What a waste of time and energy, you just want these trails to yourself and to not let others run them. What are you gonna do report me?"
(kind of like when folks get mad that hams police themselves)

Trying to be friendly you mention "Well no but if enough folks just do whatever they want then the Gov, or enviro groups have an excuse to close the trail to us" (like the fact that comercial interest would love more chunks of the radio spectrum and hams would be the ones who lost out)

Lance,
That's a pretty good analogy IMO. However, a few things (has NOTHING to do with your analogy...just your specific points):

1st, if someone shows up to run something in Florence Junction for example, a State Trust Land permit isn't actually required to run the trails out there (or in Table Mesa for that matter....the 2 major offroading areas near the valley). I'd inform the person that technically, as long as you are only passing through STL, you don't need it, but if you stop, you could be heavily fined. I'd leave it at that b/c I don't apparently share your opinion of permits.

Sedona's only rule is you must be street legal with insurance. All I would do is inform him of the rule.

Bulldog is different.....as it's permit required, I can't let him come in with our group b/c I'm liable. No permit, no entrance....but I'd have made it clear in the post announcing the run that such was the case. You are allowed to add up to 5 drivers onto your permit for those that can't make it down to the NFS office, so that problem shouldn't arise.

I know the specifics of each area wasn't the point of your post.....what I'm about to say is a point that needs to be addressed as far as my viewpoint of how much we Americans need limited government....not more regulation.

First thing: your STL permit doesn't go towards 'trail upkeep'.....nor do I want it to. When was the last time you saw any upgrades at any trails? Funds that have been earmarked specifically for OHV use in not only AZ but CA have been misappropriated countless times including but not limited to actually purchasing public lands with those funds and closing off access to the area after making them private.

IMO, the less money the NFS and BLM have, the less power they wield. Think of it this way, under the "open unless posted closed" policy of BLM, unless BLM is given the funding to sign trails closed and then enforce such closures....no closures can truly occur. Permit and OHV sticker systems ultimately fund closures and lead westerners into the private OHV park system that has been implemented back east. Essentially, these programs insure that your public lands are no longer public or multiuse.

I am against permits to be frank. The only reason I have one for STL is b/c it's convenient for me to be able to park my tow rig and trailer. If I DD my trail rig, I wouldn't own a STL permit.

I'm also VERY much against locked gates on public lands, even with free permits and combinations. It's just too easy to actually "lock" the gate and keep everyone out.

While I agree that things need to be done to curtail trash on the trails and trail braiding....that is about the extent of what needs to occur IMO. If people don't dump trash and don't open new side sections of trail (outside the wash....let me be clear: in the wash is legal bank to bank under current BLM guidelines) there really shouldn't be an issue. Willy nilly through the desert is a problem and destruction of vegetation not in the wash is a problem...but IMO, these are best handled with education (in the form of other offroaders politely letting the offender know the rules). The federal government is highly INEFFICIENT with anything it gets its hands on....throwing more money at the trail problem by getting new permit programs does nothing but line the bureaucracy's pockets.

I'd agree with your example guy who said, "these are public lands and I can use'em, I pay taxes".

As for snitching on someone.....they'd have to be doing something REALLY bad for that to happen. I've opened a LOT of trails with BLM approval....you'd be surprised how much stuff people see on the internet and claim should be reported that BLM has no qualms about. It's ignorance on a lot of people's part. It's a downright holier-than-thou "trail cop" attitude for even a greater number. In their pretend zeal to "protect the environment" they are stroking their ego in terms of their true importance to the sport. I see narking HAM operators in no different light.

1leglance previously said:

So this little exchange could be about radios or trails as the ideas are the same...a group following the rules to protect a resource and enjoy it at the same time.
I know you can't stand trash on the trails (trash talk on the air)
I know you explain how stacking rocks is bad (Tx out of band)
I know you explain that a person should have the right equip to run a certain level trail (right radio and lic to Tx)
So I know you understand protecting a limited resource from waste, abuse, and having it taken away.

I can completely understand your point now from the above quote....and I agree with you. I think the thing that turns me off about HAM is the "Trail Cop" mentality of some of the users.

1leglance previously said:

Of course I haven't touched on the value of emerg comm during diaster, search and rescue, storm watch, long distance comm to home/help when out of cell range or lots of other uses.

This thread was about why cb folks should take a look at Ham radio, kind of like looking at a single axle conversion....maybe it is for you maybe not....but we can all agree to see both sides of it without making fun of the other camp.

Oh and on the seriousness thing...well that is just me

And the emergency aspect of HAM is what is interesting to me. Don't get me wrong, my opinion is that HAM is a useful tool for emergencies and is almost an essential for guys that like to do expedition type 4wheeling, especially if they go it alone at all. It's definitely better than CB in every aspect. If everyone adopted HAM over CB for trail use....that's what I'd have. But they don't....at least not now.

You FJC guys are sorta the Inspector Gadgets of the 4wheeling world. I've never heard of so many guys putting electronic gizmos in their 4x rigs. HAM makes sense as it's the most advanced comm system you can get in a radio (that everyone can actually get a hold of w/in reason).

In any case, I owe you (and everyone else) an apology. I now realize that my negative comments dragged this thread off in the wrong direction. I'm not sure why the HAM issue even bothered me to be honest. To each his own, right? I thought a major part of your conversion to HAM and the subsequent cheerleading was b/c you'd had such a bad experience with CB. My experience with it has been very much the opposite with less fan fare (no exams, cheaper equipment, and fortunatley no problems even without doing any SWR tests). I think most of my success is from the big ghey antenna I use though.

About the seriousness thing.....remember Lance: There's only 2 rules to life.

1. Don't sweat the small sh!t.

2. EVERYTHING is small sh!t.

Hope there are no hard feelings on your end.....certainly aren't on mine.

Oh, and sorry for poking fun at you with the potty training thing. It's waaaay funnier in person. Sarcasm and humor are really hard to read through this medium. My apologies for getting too familiar with someone I haven't actually met.

Take care,
Sean

[spincycle]

I think that MtnMan's descriptions of why HAM is cool are all quite valid...but I disagree that (unless you're going deep into nowhere, need the range, and are traveling solo or without backup of any kind) that the typical offroader ought to use HAM instead of CB.

Most CB use by offroaders is short (as in to the truck in front of you!) to mid (miles). Does the HAM community really want a bunch of four wheelers showing up and arguing about whether the turn is at the second or third closed gate? Or whether someone can hop out and spot real quick?

Seems to me that they're separate 'markets', with separate reasons for existing. I have FRS/GMRS, which is sometimes useful. I also have CB, which I've been quite glad to have, and which many/most emergency services moitor as a matter of course in areas likely for that to be useful.

Now, I *do* plan on getting my HAM license (esp. now; never did want to learn Morse), but each technology is useful for a different purpose.

Thoughts?

[KD7NAC_07FJ]

spincycle previously said:

I think that MtnMan's descriptions of why HAM is cool are all quite valid...but I disagree that (unless you're going deep into nowhere, need the range, and are traveling solo or without backup of any kind) that the typical offroader ought to use HAM instead of CB.

Most CB use by offroaders is short (as in to the truck in front of you!) to mid (miles). Does the HAM community really want a bunch of four wheelers showing up and arguing about whether the turn is at the second or third closed gate? Or whether someone can hop out and spot real quick?

Seems to me that they're separate 'markets', with separate reasons for existing. I have FRS/GMRS, which is sometimes useful. I also have CB, which I've been quite glad to have, and which many/most emergency services moitor as a matter of course in areas likely for that to be useful.

Now, I *do* plan on getting my HAM license (esp. now; never did want to learn Morse), but each technology is useful for a different purpose.

Thoughts?

Some really good points but I think the point goes more to having multiple radios.

If you work armature frequencies you have many more options then "fixed channel" radios.

For instance - perfect (HAM ) world scenario. You have 20 some rigs wanting to do a bunch of trails in the same area. All of them have a 2m radio and are of course licensed

You can set up literally hundreds of "Simplex" frequencies, within the authorized 2m band and still not be on any repeater. You could set up a common frequency for everybody (Command Freq), have another for emergencies that maybe someone back a camp is monitoring or even designate a local repeater for emergency comms. Then you can have an different frequency on low power set up for every single team on each trail and still not interfere with any "normal" traffic on the 2m band or even cross talk from different trails. I don't know how many times someone has called for assistance over the standard CB channel 4 only to find out they are on a completely different trail with another group. (Not that that preculdes any of us for going to their aid should they actually need it.)

And the best part - completely clear comms on FM transmission. No crackley static AM from the CB or skip/lost comms when you get out of sight from the measly 1/4 watt allowed for FRS.

Unless you know someone or communicated using armature radio it's not easy to convey all the bonuses. Sure you have to take a test, get a license and conform to transmission/communications regulations but I don't see that as a minus in the first place.

[1leglance]

we did a run today in tucson and we had 14 rigs on the air with cb...
a couple of things I noticed as I was also listening to a tucson repeater...
1) AM static sux for really hearing folks
2) every lightening strike causes static
3) range is a issue along with hills when you spread out due to dust
4) the entire time I had this nice quiet FM quality conversation going on using the HAM radio while there was scratchy staticy cb..
5) alot of guys spend the same $100-$150 on a cb/antenna setup that they would on HAM
6) you can goof around on ham (especially simplex)...just stay away from swearing and getting toooo off color
7) I could easily jump out of my rig with my handheld ham and walk around checking things, spotting and reporting back...harder to do with cb (but possible with FRS)
8) since I was tailsweeping I keep thinking it would be nice to have a sep freq for me & the leader in case he needed to pass something on in the middle of regular trail chatter...most ham radios will do a simple scan of a couple of freq like your general trail simplex, your leader/sweep simplex and the area repeater to stay in touch with camp or any late folks.
9) we lost cell phone coverage quickly and for most of the trail. I also playing around with my cb a couple of times seeing if I could raise anyone on 19...no go. And if you talk to cops/ems not too many monitor cb anymore
However I ALWAYS had repeater (actually quite a number of repeaters) that were in range and clear enough that I could have called for help and most of those repeaters gave me a reply when I checked in

So just some thoughts to add to the mix. Oh and on a side note it was nice to be able to use an open autopatch (connection between repeater and phone line) to give my wife a call to say we were running late on the trail even when I didn't have cell coverage.

[shtarka1]

spincycle previously said:

I think that MtnMan's descriptions of why HAM is cool are all quite valid...but I disagree that (unless you're going deep into nowhere, need the range, and are traveling solo or without backup of any kind) that the typical offroader ought to use HAM instead of CB.

Most CB use by offroaders is short (as in to the truck in front of you!) to mid (miles). Does the HAM community really want a bunch of four wheelers showing up and arguing about whether the turn is at the second or third closed gate? Or whether someone can hop out and spot real quick?

Seems to me that they're separate 'markets', with separate reasons for existing. I have FRS/GMRS, which is sometimes useful. I also have CB, which I've been quite glad to have, and which many/most emergency services moitor as a matter of course in areas likely for that to be useful.

Now, I *do* plan on getting my HAM license (esp. now; never did want to learn Morse), but each technology is useful for a different purpose.

Thoughts?

Excellent Point!
Some Great Info Posted Here On All Sides. You Know Whats Awesome About Ham Radio For Me........Talking To A Person In Barbados Or Tahiti For 5 or 10 Minutes and Having Them Invite Me To Stay At Their Home If Im Ever On Vacation Out There Way!
If Your Thinking About Taking The Test There's Some Informative Stuff Along With Practice Exams On "QRZ.COM.
Mountain Man ...Congrats On Your Call Sign!
73, Steve , kc1h