Great Land / Trail Use Video

[MissFJ]

Kzoocruiser previously said:

I guess we have a difference of opinion regarding "without having to pay anything.. (being)..the point of wheelin'...".

I guess we do, as I see people will complain about what you do regardless if you paid a million dollar trail pass.

[Kzoocruiser]

MissFJ previously said:

I guess we do, as I see people will complain about what you do regardless if you paid a million dollar trail pass.

I'm guessing that if the off-road community and the landmanagers raked in that kind of money... we'd be complaining about where the money went instead of there's not a chance in heck we'll ever get it beyond the point of a gun. (that being my point in the first place and how lack of what should be voluntary funding shapes the world's perception of us and how we fix/maintain the environment we impact ).

[highbeams]

I am headed up to one of my favorite spots above Lake Silverwood, taking a trail that crosses a stream 3 or 4 times. I am just wanting to go up and enjoy some solitude and soak in the views that God created for me to enjoy. At one of the crossings I have to wait, a man with his 2 girls are crossing, both girls some where around 10, all 3 on their own quads I watch as he gets off his quad and grabs the controls of each small quad and walks the girls thru, showing them how to take the crossing. A huge smile on on their face, I know he is sacrificeing his comfort of dry boots this day for his children, on the other side they let me pass, and I continue to my perch.
once there I reflect.
Down below me is a family bonding while enjoying their National forest, the children are being taught life lessons and are falling in love with the outdoors. Lessons about themselves and their ability to conquer obsticles, lessons about doing things as a family, lessons about stewardship of our Land.
In the background I here the faint noise of dozens of outboard motors from the lake below me. I woner if this weekend someone will drunkenly crash into another boat, seems to be a weekly occurence I read in the paper.
you know, they are trying to close those trail that family is using, the trail that some club has to adopt to maintain because there are not enough funds for the forestry service too. One that without private support would be closed. The one the Greenies say I have no right to use as I am destroying the enviroment.
But that lake, the one that has trouble with trash being left around it, the one with lines of guys outside it waiting for someone to leave so they can get in. The one where they have to have a constant patrol on it to arrest drunken operators or get people to obey the speed laws, or keep them out of certain areas. That lake is getting more funding to patrol and clean it up, to add docks and restrooms.

I know what that video is about

[MissFJ]

^^Now thats a point I can follow. well put highbeams.

[Kzoocruiser]

[quote=highbeams[I]]"...you know, they are trying to close those trail that family is using, the trail that some club has to adopt to maintain because there are not enough funds for the forestry service too. One that without private support would be closed....."[/i]

If there is a person against folks becomming involved through clubs to keep trails open....I don't know of them.
On the other hand, I see very few clubs looking far enough into the future as to how these trails will be maintained when their generation passes (it's called legacy building).
I have never in my life witnessed an organization which promoted the kind of for-profit privitization of trail maintenance that ASSURES the work is done every time/done right....and why is that?
Is it that the national and local off-highway groups would lose much of their power?
Is it the fact that many in and out of these clubs actually feel that being forced to embrace pay-to-play or the insistence that these privitized maintenance contracts be created perpetually...actually exposes their talking out of both sides of the mouth on environmental impact issues?
Tell me...how does one complain about trails being shut down or clubs being forced to take over trail maintenance...when there are absolutely no plans in place to pry the stinkin' money out of off-roader's hands so that this assinine action truly never has a chance of happening again?

"...But that lake, the one that has trouble with trash being left around it, the one with lines of guys outside it waiting for someone to leave so they can get in. The one where they have to have a constant patrol on it to arrest drunken operators or get people to obey the speed laws, or keep them out of certain areas. That lake is getting more funding to patrol and clean it up, to add docks and restrooms...."

I'm sorry, HB; yet as much as I truly respect your passion and even more your intentions...the scene you describe above could be (and is in many cases) any trailhead in this country on a weekend morning in the 21st century. Doesn't every one of those transgressions happen every day on the land we enjoy also and if so...what makes 'us' any better than them?
I've already questioned the filmaker's assertion that not a dime is spent on bridges in Alberta...so just where in the heck do Americans feel that this kind of money should come from and why?
For pete's sake if it's the darn "government"....just come right out and say it!

Which brings me right back to my original point.
"Pay-to-Play" is a dirty darn word in this community and the trails we lose tomorrow will be our own darn fault because of that fact....not the local hot-spot lake scoring a few new docks or fancy crapper because entire communities are built around a revenue generating resource that is much EASIER and LESS EXPENSIVE to maintain (in other words...it takes far fewer dollars to clean up the beach than it does to properly restore land damaged that nobody in the off-road community wants to talk about actually paying for if "they weren't there" when it happened....).

[Tony5150RN]

Very good video, great points, and you can't beat that soundtrack!!!!

Thanks for sharing.

[Velheru]

In Indiana there is a state sponsored group through the Dept. of Natural Resources. The membership you pay each year goes towards keeping trails open and creating off road parks. Yes you have to pay to get into the parks, but they are nice sized and have bathroom facilities and what not. There are many good trails in IN that you HAVE to be a member of the Indiana Four Wheel Drive Association just to take your vehicle on the trail. Most clubs around here charge $35 a year for membership and include IFWDA membership with it. Pay to Play is not a problem in alot of areas, its just that most states arent willing to set up a program like this. I think its a great model for other states

[Martel]

[quote=Kzoocruiser]

highbeams[I previously said:

]"...you know, they are trying to close those trail that family is using, the trail that some club has to adopt to maintain because there are not enough funds for the forestry service too. One that without private support would be closed....."[/i]

If there is a person against folks becomming involved through clubs to keep trails open....I don't know of them.
On the other hand, I see very few clubs looking far enough into the future as to how these trails will be maintained when their generation passes (it's called legacy building).
I have never in my life witnessed an organization which promoted the kind of for-profit privitization of trail maintenance that ASSURES the work is done every time/done right....and why is that?
Is it that the national and local off-highway groups would lose much of their power?
Is it the fact that many in and out of these clubs actually feel that being forced to embrace pay-to-play or the insistence that these privitized maintenance contracts be created perpetually...actually exposes their talking out of both sides of the mouth on environmental impact issues?
Tell me...how does one complain about trails being shut down or clubs being forced to take over trail maintenance...when there are absolutely no plans in place to pry the stinkin' money out of off-roader's hands so that this assinine action truly never has a chance of happening again?

"...But that lake, the one that has trouble with trash being left around it, the one with lines of guys outside it waiting for someone to leave so they can get in. The one where they have to have a constant patrol on it to arrest drunken operators or get people to obey the speed laws, or keep them out of certain areas. That lake is getting more funding to patrol and clean it up, to add docks and restrooms...."

I'm sorry, HB; yet as much as I truly respect your passion and even more your intentions...the scene you describe above could be (and is in many cases) any trailhead in this country on a weekend morning in the 21st century. Doesn't every one of those transgressions happen every day on the land we enjoy also and if so...what makes 'us' any better than them?
I've already questioned the filmaker's assertion that not a dime is spent on bridges in Alberta...so just where in the heck do Americans feel that this kind of money should come from and why?
For pete's sake if it's the darn "government"....just come right out and say it!

Which brings me right back to my original point.
"Pay-to-Play" is a dirty darn word in this community and the trails we lose tomorrow will be our own darn fault because of that fact....not the local hot-spot lake scoring a few new docks or fancy crapper because entire communities are built around a revenue generating resource that is much EASIER and LESS EXPENSIVE to maintain (in other words...it takes far fewer dollars to clean up the beach than it does to properly restore land damaged that nobody in the off-road community wants to talk about actually paying for if "they weren't there" when it happened....).

Well, your take on the video threw me as well…but the above seemingly provided a bit more clarity on your position/take and from there come my comments:

As for “where in the heck do Americans feel that this kind of money should come from” --- Government is a correct answer---but TAXPAYER is the best answer. That said…the taxpayers have ALREADY paid for/continue to pay for local/state/fed parks and forest lands. BUT, when it comes to the use of these parks/forest lands, not all (taxpaying) users are created equal. Certain users (example: 4-wheelers and anybody else that wants to connect with the ground via a rubber tire) are often prohibited from using local/state/fed parks/forests, etc. for many of the (baseless?) reasons alluded to in the video.

“Pay-to-play” is great---but how many boaters/hikers/horse-backer riders etc. are currently being asked to “pay-to-play” in local/state/fed parks/lands? How many of same will gladly accept a “pay-to-play” if asked to do so? Not many, if any! Not sure how having 4wheelers, alone, “pay-to-play” will address your issue/concern. Am I still missing your point?

[oldawg]

Kzoocruiser you missed the whole point of the video....Throwing money around...Is that you answer to everything? How about being responsible for your own actions !!! furthermore your whole argument is BS ..Look at all the 4x4 clubs that sponsor trail clean ups, working with the BLM and Forest service ?? I could rant on for ever over this having been involved in the community for over 20 years and seen what it takes to keep land open but why bother this argument is probably older than you...Join a local club or at least check them out and see what is being done before you go off half ****ed on some BS argument about money...Oh and what have you! yourself !!done to help in this regard ? I saw the video as being about being responsible while enjoying some real family time away from all the distractions... And someone doing something to help the cause....You are coming off as somewhat of a pompous arse without backing yourself up.......

[Kzoocruiser]

[quote=Martel]"..As for “where in the heck do Americans feel that this kind of money should come from” --- Government is a correct answer---but TAXPAYER is the best answer. That said…the taxpayers have ALREADY paid for/continue to pay for local/state/fed parks and forest lands. BUT, when it comes to the use of these parks/forest lands, not all (taxpaying) users are created equal. Certain users (example: 4-wheelers and anybody else that wants to connect with the ground via a rubber tire) are often prohibited from using local/state/fed parks/forests, etc. for many of the (baseless?) reasons alluded to in the video...."

What I am starting to learn...is that there is absolutely no sense or evidence of shared community within the rubberized ranks you mention for the very simple reasoning of greed and selfishness. Let's not cry about what we don't have or are about to lose when huge national groups like the AMA or ATVA are more interested in promoting 'racing' than tackling the tough questions involved in getting all of these sports to work TOGETHER and safely with much ignored no-b.s. self-enforcement.(you talk about being unable to access riding areas...well who in the heck is going into these places like the Appalachias and cracking down on those who feel it is their god-given right to ride wherever they darn please....and "by gosh" what are you going to do about it??? )
If I've got the most powerful name in outdoor recreation tirelessly working to create trails which nobody but an arrogant motorcyclist will ever experience...and corporations such as Polaris turning tail and running after "daring" to suggest that a well over 3,000 mile trail system be rightfully turned into a properly maintained multi-use sytem....who is actually at 'fault' here?
The greenies who know we aren't organized worth a damn and ashamedly aren't even voluntarily quantifying what bozos outside the small thinking portion of our (quote/unquote) "community" destroy every day? (gee, if we admit that any of this actually happens or that we need more equipment on the ground in each of these areas...who in the heck is going to pay for that?

"...“Pay-to-play” is great..."

No, it is not....and just ask anybody up here who posesses absolutely NO desire to discuss that very issue affecting their discretionary income!!

"...but how many boaters/hikers/horse-backer riders etc. are currently being asked to “pay-to-play” in local/state/fed parks/lands?..."

Who cares!....do you somehow feel that this isn't mandatory already, should be and presently at the absolute minimum level that it could possibly ever be?

"...How many of same will gladly accept a “pay-to-play” if asked to do so?..."

Again... WHY IN THE HECK DO I CARE IF THEY "GLADLY ACCEPT" THE MONETARY RESPONSIBILITY FOR MAINTAINING WHAT THEY/WE AFFECT???

"...Not many, if any!..."

Isn't that my point here?

"...Not sure how having 4wheelers, alone, “pay-to-play” will address your issue/concern. Am I still missing your point?..."

I guess you might be and respect the fact that you asked; just didn't understand that last sentance...thanks (I'll answer Old Dawg tomorrow).