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Transmissions / Transfer Cases / Traction Aids This area is for discussion, questions and problems with the FJ Cruiser's gear train, including topics on A-TRAC, VSC, locking diffs, gear ratios, manual vs. AT, etc.

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Old 12-15-2012, 06:00 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: RA61F and A750F hp capability

HP does not kill transmissions, excessive torque does combined with traction kills transmissions. A stock mustang T5 5 speed transmission can handle 600hp in a very light street tired car. However put that same trans in car with big slicks, and guess what, transmission will blow up. Just like a honda 5 speed manual will often last behind 300 to 400 hp out of a low torque high rpm 4 banger. Put a 350 hp big block on it with 400 to 450ftlb of torque and you will turn the trans into a bucket full of parts.

Considering your talking high HP, 4wd systems, likely big heavy ass tires, my answer is no the transmissions will not even remotely last behind 500+ hp let alone 800. If you have the cash for 800 hp then you have the cash for a built more conventional 3 speed auto that will last. My buddies and I have run C4 fords behind 600hp motors, t5s behind 500 whp mustangs, and everything else under the sun. Amazingly a friend of mine made 180+ 1/4 mile passes with 500+ whp on a stock ford AOD on a 4,000 pound car with slicks (in the mid 11s) before the trans finally failed.

What your talking is almost more rediculous. Traction will be plentiful so the driveline will take one hell of a hit. You should be looking at modified diesel trucks if you want a idea of what it will take for a 4wd system with bigger tires to not blow up. They are running huge axels, diesel transmissions that are unbelieveably stonger then anything ever even thought of to put in a small suv, and yet they still blow transmissions up in the 600 to 800 hp range (granted at 1000ftlbs of torque plus).
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:10 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: RA61F and A750F hp capability

A heavy truck that likely exceeds 4,500 pounds, 4wd with almost unlimited traction, a transfer case as a added failure point, I would say it would be unlikely to make more then a 20 passes at 500 hp. At 800 you wouldn't likely make more then one or two. The auto trans will last longer on hard launches because the torque converter will cushion the shock to the transmission and driveline. Your going to want to run crazy high gears (think above 5.40 to keep the torque load in the driveline lower at launch. This is just for drag race surivial, you can forget about reliability with a even modified stock transmission if its going to be under power off roading in sand dunes for periods of time.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:37 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: RA61F and A750F hp capability

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The A750F is able to handle the torque of a TRD supercharged 2UZ-FE. But even that is far less than 800hp.

Only thing in the Toyota lineup i would imagine is much stronger is the transmission that comes in the Tundra. That trans has been handling 504HP and 550 lb-ft of torque without problems.
Layonnn if you are talking about the AB60E and AB60F then do you have any idea the spline number on the input/output shaft of this tranny? which side the IFS spindle if its on the passenger or driver side? whats the tc model on the LX570/tundra 4x4? i still got a lot of reading to do
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:02 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: RA61F and A750F hp capability

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I'd say no on the tranny for that type of power. Perhpas give IPT a call if you are sold on sticking with toyota. If not I'd toss a built GM tranny in and run an adaptor plate for it.
i did get in contact with IPT a few months back and they told me the highest hp their upgraded A750F could handle 600hp Max
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:01 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: RA61F and A750F hp capability

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HP does not kill transmissions, excessive torque does combined with traction kills transmissions. A stock mustang T5 5 speed transmission can handle 600hp in a very light street tired car. However put that same trans in car with big slicks, and guess what, transmission will blow up. Just like a honda 5 speed manual will often last behind 300 to 400 hp out of a low torque high rpm 4 banger. Put a 350 hp big block on it with 400 to 450ftlb of torque and you will turn the trans into a bucket full of parts.

I know torque and loss of traction have a big impact on transmission life, but I mentioned the hp goal since I am going twin turbo and itís very hard to predict torque until you put the car on a dyno....torque will definitely be +600 since we are talking about the 4.7L V8 which will generate lots of torque. by the way I have a turboed Honda civic too and it uses the stock tranny with coated synchros and added mechanical LSD......I broke a 500hp axle before and the tranny is still surviving....thatís why I asked about the stock RA61F and A750F trannies, cause I wanted to know if there is any sort of way to modify those trannies to reach my goal without breaking them....I know honda engines have small displacement and put down lower torque numbers compared to V8s, but the torque on those stock honda trannies pretty much last for that 3x-5x torque numbers that is originally made from stock .you are making me sound as if I want to put down those high hp numbers using a stock tranny.....lol

Considering your talking high HP, 4wd systems, likely big heavy ass tires, my answer is no the transmissions will not even remotely last behind 500+ hp let alone 800. If you have the cash for 800 hp then you have the cash for a built more conventional 3 speed auto that will last. My buddies and I have run C4 fords behind 600hp motors, t5s behind 500 whp mustangs, and everything else under the sun. Amazingly a friend of mine made 180+ 1/4 mile passes with 500+ whp on a stock ford AOD on a 4,000 pound car with slicks (in the mid 11s) before the trans finally failed.
From where did you get the idea I want to put bigger tires? and this car not meant to be a drag car itís a sand dune offroad car. I donít mind trying at the drag strip to see what she put down, but itís purely an offroad. I might fit lighter wheels that are bigger than stock, but the overall size will be the same as I want to ensure speedometer/RPM reading correctly, so does that entitle me for running bigger tires?

What your talking is almost more rediculous. Traction will be plentiful so the driveline will take one hell of a hit. You should be looking at modified diesel trucks if you want a idea of what it will take for a 4wd system with bigger tires to not blow up. They are running huge axels, diesel transmissions that are unbelieveably stonger then anything ever even thought of to put in a small suv, and yet they still blow transmissions up in the 600 to 800 hp range (granted at 1000ftlbs of torque plus).
I donít think its ridiculous to run a stock tranny if its built to handle the target tq/hp. diesel engines make a lot of torque (more tq than hp) and thatís something I am not interested in. I have seen those diesel cars struggling in the steep sand hills cause there isnít enough speed to keep the car going. believe me I have driven both on steep sand hills. For my application you will need a 4x4 that can keep up its speed all the way to the top....and I know torque is important to maintain it, but not 1000ft/lbs for me. I understand some of your theories, but my attention here is to reach +600tq and ~800hp. We donít do crawling here where I live so a dual case or even higher gear ratios is something we donít install
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:47 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: RA61F and A750F hp capability

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Prado3dr previously said: View Post
Layonnn if you are talking about the AB60E and AB60F then do you have any idea the spline number on the input/output shaft of this tranny? which side the IFS spindle if its on the passenger or driver side? whats the tc model on the LX570/tundra 4x4? i still got a lot of reading to do
I don't know much about the transmission in a Tundra. Just figure logically it has to be one of the toughest since it is using of the most powerful stock engines Toyota has made (and can handle the superchargers extra power as well)

Also, the Land Cruiser and LX570 use an AWD/4x4 transfer case vs the part time transfer case in the Tundra.

I remember reading a guy swapped a 200 series LC transfer case into his supercharged Tundra to improve traction. I think it might have been Jowett Engineering?
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:50 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: RA61F and A750F hp capability

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A heavy truck that likely exceeds 4,500 pounds, 4wd with almost unlimited traction, a transfer case as a added failure point, I would say it would be unlikely to make more then a 20 passes at 500 hp. At 800 you wouldn't likely make more then one or two. The auto trans will last longer on hard launches because the torque converter will cushion the shock to the transmission and driveline. Your going to want to run crazy high gears (think above 5.40 to keep the torque load in the driveline lower at launch. This is just for drag race surivial, you can forget about reliability with a even modified stock transmission if its going to be under power off roading in sand dunes for periods of time.
I did put some consideration for the TH400 or SP400. what do you think?
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:36 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: RA61F and A750F hp capability

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From where did you get the idea I want to put bigger tires? and this car not meant to be a drag car it’s a sand dune offroad car. I don’t mind trying at the drag strip to see what she put down, but it’s purely an offroad. I might fit lighter wheels that are bigger than stock, but the overall size will be the same as I want to ensure speedometer/RPM reading correctly, so does that entitle me for running bigger tires?
Whats the point of 800 hp and stock sized tires? I have a hard time believing a stock tire size fj will do any better with 800 hp then with 400hp on sand. Wider tires will give you better flotation, at the cost of eating power. However your talking 800 hp and thats more then enough power to run a much wider tire for much better flotation.




Quote:
I know torque and loss of traction have a big impact on transmission life, but I mentioned the hp goal since I am going twin turbo and it’s very hard to predict torque until you put the car on a dyno....torque will definitely be +600 since we are talking about the 4.7L V8 which will generate lots of torque. by the way I have a turboed Honda civic too and it uses the stock tranny with coated synchros and added mechanical LSD......I broke a 500hp axle before and the tranny is still surviving....that’s why I asked about the stock RA61F and A750F trannies, cause I wanted to know if there is any sort of way to modify those trannies to reach my goal without breaking them....I know honda engines have small displacement and put down lower torque numbers compared to V8s, but the torque on those stock honda trannies pretty much last for that 3x-5x torque numbers that is originally made from stock .you are making me sound as if I want to put down those high hp numbers using a stock tranny.....lol
The stick shift has very simple limitations. If you don't power shift (shift without letting off the gas) your limited to how much power the inputshaft and gear teeth can handle. If your not dumping the clutch in high traction situations, the stick shift will handle a lot of power. The same modifications can be done to the toyota stick as any other stick shift. Cryo treatment of parts, machining the gears for different syncros, and if enough money is floating around even a custom gearset. However like I said stick shifts don't cushion the blow from a dumped clutch very well.

The auto I am sure can be built to handle a lot of power. Heavy duty clutch plates, big electric fan trans coolers, aftermarket hard parts, the works. With a turbo motor the auto will be better since the slippage within the torque converter will help build boost better because the motor will be artificially loaded. A good example would be stepping on it from a lower rpm with the tires bound up in dirt/sand/mud. The auto will allow slippage to the torque converters stall speed (and I would imagine you would run a 2,200 to 3K stall speed converter depending on engines rpm potential) which means the motor will have more starting rpm to work with, and thus more power. With the stick shift the only way to build power through higher rpm is to go with a lower gear, or slip the clutch. Both of those are problems since lower gear=less wheel speed and the need to shift to keep floatation. Slipping the clutch isn't good either and will quickly eat the clutch and flywheel. Not to mention the auto will shift faster thus keeping forward momentum. I wouldn't want to speed shift the manual trans under 500 hp (let alone 800hp) to try to keep the wheel speed high. Its not ment for that.

Quote:
I don’t think its ridiculous to run a stock tranny if its built to handle the target tq/hp. diesel engines make a lot of torque (more tq than hp) and that’s something I am not interested in. I have seen those diesel cars struggling in the steep sand hills cause there isn’t enough speed to keep the car going. believe me I have driven both on steep sand hills. For my application you will need a 4x4 that can keep up its speed all the way to the top....and I know torque is important to maintain it, but not 1000ft/lbs for me. I understand some of your theories, but my attention here is to reach +600tq and ~800hp. We don’t do crawling here where I live so a dual case or even higher gear ratios is something we don’t install
The point of going with higher gear ratios is to keep the torque in the driveline lower. Running 5+ ratio gears will lower the torque load in the driveline. The transmission will have less of a torque load. Think about the difference between dumping a clutch with a truck with big slicks on a sticky track, vs a truck with street tires on snow. The torque load on the transmission would be tremendous with slicks, and hardly anything on snow since the tires will just spin. Yes arguably by going with higher gears your putting the stress on the axle shafts, but thats a much better place then the trans/driveshaft/pinion.

Quote:
did put some consideration for the TH400 or SP400. what do you think?
The th400 is availible over the counter to handle 1,000 hp all day. IF your serious about power why screw around? Rebuilding the toyota transmission to last could work, but what is there to gain over a th400? Sure a couple extra gears wouldn't hurt. But thats a couple extra gears that could fail.
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:23 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: RA61F and A750F hp capability

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Prado3dr previously said: View Post
Hi guys,
as the title says I wanted to know the hp capability of these two transmissions? I am doing a research before I start a project and for simplicity reasons I wanted to keep the tranny, transfer case as is if possible. My aim is and yield at least 800hp from the transplanted engine I am aiming for. Could someone enlighten me on the weak points of the drivetrain when going big hp?
I don't want to highjack your thread but my question also would be can the frame, motor mounts, third members, etc. handle 800 sustained HP?

I probably don't understand how the HP rating is attained on a twin turbo small displacement engine. Is that rating just for a mil second?
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: RA61F and A750F hp capability

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Whats the point of 800 hp and stock sized tires? I have a hard time believing a stock tire size fj will do any better with 800 hp then with 400hp on sand. Wider tires will give you better flotation, at the cost of eating power. However your talking 800 hp and thats more then enough power to run a much wider tire for much better flotation.
Well i was thinking stock overall size, but the width is bigger. stock tires are 265/70/17 and would like to use 285/60/18 for the street, but will use 33" tires when its time to go off road



Quote:
Greggry previously said: View Post
The stick shift has very simple limitations. If you don't power shift (shift without letting off the gas) your limited to how much power the inputshaft and gear teeth can handle. If your not dumping the clutch in high traction situations, the stick shift will handle a lot of power. The same modifications can be done to the toyota stick as any other stick shift. Cryo treatment of parts, machining the gears for different syncros, and if enough money is floating around even a custom gearset. However like I said stick shifts don't cushion the blow from a dumped clutch very well.
Something i have noticed and im not sure about the FJ's but the auto prado's makes more torque then the manual prado and the stall option is something i like about those aftermarket trannies.


Quote:
Greggry previously said: View Post
The auto I am sure can be built to handle a lot of power. Heavy duty clutch plates, big electric fan trans coolers, aftermarket hard parts, the works. With a turbo motor the auto will be better since the slippage within the torque converter will help build boost better because the motor will be artificially loaded. A good example would be stepping on it from a lower rpm with the tires bound up in dirt/sand/mud. The auto will allow slippage to the torque converters stall speed (and I would imagine you would run a 2,200 to 3K stall speed converter depending on engines rpm potential) which means the motor will have more starting rpm to work with, and thus more power. With the stick shift the only way to build power through higher rpm is to go with a lower gear, or slip the clutch. Both of those are problems since lower gear=less wheel speed and the need to shift to keep floatation. Slipping the clutch isn't good either and will quickly eat the clutch and flywheel. Not to mention the auto will shift faster thus keeping forward momentum. I wouldn't want to speed shift the manual trans under 500 hp (let alone 800hp) to try to keep the wheel speed high. Its not ment for that.
same theory i had on mind and not to mention i dont have to do a manual conversion or change interior parts, cluster....etc to make the manual work, so going auto is a simpler route for me


Quote:
Greggry previously said: View Post
The th400 is availible over the counter to handle 1,000 hp all day. IF your serious about power why screw around? Rebuilding the toyota transmission to last could work, but what is there to gain over a th400? Sure a couple extra gears wouldn't hurt. But thats a couple extra gears that could fail.
so are you recommending to go with a TH400 or upgrading the A750F? i didnt make up my mind yet, but if i do go with the TH400 do think i should go with a lock or non-lock tranny?
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