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Re-thinking '09 attendance

7K views 65 replies 33 participants last post by  MrBigAxe 
#1 · (Edited)
:: removed for the sake of the event :::
 
#5 ·
it's unfortunate that something that doesn't involve any of us.... nor does it change the summit... can change a person's mind. It's an automotive rally/event.... why can't we just have fun and enjoy everyone's company?
 
#41 ·
I agree completely, it is sad that some people are making decisions that are probably based on innuendo and gossip. I doubt that the politics of the organizers will affect the attendees.

Last year was a lot of fun, we enjoyed putting faces to many of the members of the forum. I am not sure how some of the vendors "got screwed". Considering that Springtail probably had the most remote location, we felt that the exposure was wonderful and that seeing the other vendors products in person was great. The organizers were accomodating and the the events seemed well organized. It is true that you could go on your own...but I can say from experience that FJ Summit is a super value compared to the competing off-road vacations (cost for 2 adults at a Ouray Jeep event would be $500.00). AND you will just be missing out on a bunch of fun!

I would highly recommend the experience to anyone.:bigthumb:

Sadly, we will not be attending the Summit this year...this is due to a scheduling conflict and has nothing to do with organizers of the event.

Doc
 
#6 ·
There will be other things going on. The community is rather large and not exclusive the this forum. Colorado is a free state and everyone has the same opportunity to run trails, etc.. There's Moab, Sedona, Flag, lots of stuff is being discussed by FJ'ers.. Possibly do any combination of everything! Cheers.. Ron
 
#7 ·
for me it doesnt offer a return on the cost. I can go anywhere anytime and have the same great time. I've never been able to get a meal, i've been dropped from every run I signed up for, never purchased from a vendor on site, or anything else.

Great for others i'm sure, but i've talked to quite a few from break off groups I've met and made runs with that just weren't feeling it.
Expressing this i'm sure will again be erased and warranted as "bad apple".
No, I've been twice and they both sucked.

Buy Demello!
 
#9 ·
I hope you DO attend daToy!

The guns daToy is referring to were several attendees legally wore their sidearms at some of the functions. Frankly, it was a bit of a surprise for everyone. Each of these attendees were good citizens and put the arms away when alcohol was present. Although within their rights, we will be asking attendees to rethink this practice this year since this made some people uncomfortable.

As far as drinking, yes, alcohol is served in the hotel grounds and we had only a few minor incidents of rowdiness. Nothing out of control and nothing beyond what you expect at an off-road event. Again, we will pay close attention to keep this a family friendly event

FJSummit prohibits any alcohol on the trail, streets and sidewalks. Period.

Unique to the off road community, FJSummit is a terrific family event. please visit: FJSummit2008 for Kristin's terrific photos of the family fun and FJSummit Headquarters environment
 
#10 ·
Tim it is a great family event, minus the side arm carrying on the grounds where the tent and vendors were located, beer or no beer present.

The gentleman that was open caryring, was standing right in the middle of the Children during the Children give away (with side arm) and many of us were also standing around drinking beer. I was not comfortable with it, nor was my wife. Since I do not know this individual, I don't know if he is cool under pressure or a hot head, trained with his side arm or not trained. But me not knowing him is not the issue, there are 600 other attendees, as well.

Does the Ouray Summit event have proper insurance to cover an accidental hand gun going off in the vendor area?

The trails are mild in comparison to many events and the town is very tame. So seeing a side arm at a family event was a bit off putting, given the level of danger present.

I spoke to many TLCA present and past board members, after the event last year. Open carry at the tent area for any reason, was perceived as silly. Furthermore, they have never had anyone open carry at any TLCA sanctioned event before. Except on the rare occcasion, while someone was hiking trail in a remote area of the Rubicon last year. But even still, the TLCA asks folks to not bring guns to Rubithon.

Many TLCA members do have concealed weapons in their vehicles and keep them out of site, at all times.

Rising Sun has been putting on the Cruise Moab event for over 10 years and never had anyone open carry. Many have their side arms quietly tucked away in their vehicle, where no one knows about it but them.

The Rising Sun 4x4 club takes lead driver roles very serious, as well. I was told that any group I am leading for Rising Sun, where someone is wearing a side arm, I have the right to tell them to put that away in their vehicle or leave the group.

So I have offered to lead groups at the Ouray Summit, what is your policy going to be for open carry side arms while on trails, have you discussed this internally?

I believe that while it may be someone's right to open carry in certain parts of Colorado, the Ouray Summit is a private event and those that put on the private event have a right to allow someone to participate or not based on following their rules.

We will attend this year but if the soft touch approach to this issue, is not effective. We will not be back.

p.s. I plan on purchasing a side arm and will take classes for safe use. I will not bring it to Ouray. I plan on having it with me, only for the most remote expeditions. I don't perceive the fire road between Ouray and Telluride to be remote enough for me to exercise my right to open carry or conceal.
 
#17 ·
You do realize attendees chances of a mechanical failure or driver error while on one of these beautiful trails could much more easily lead to death than any accidental discharge, right?

You also realize that one of the attendees is FAR more likely to be killed in a car accident on the way to or the way home from Summit as well, right?

Needless worry to say the least....statistically speaking anyway. I just find it odd what some people choose to fear.

I agree about the event though....if the EVENT STAFF makes a rule that says no firearms....then they can bar people who violate that rule from participating in the event activities....but they can't bar them from using the trails on public lands or bar them from using any public area where firearms are legally allowed.

Sean
 
#11 ·
This year I'll be attending with my 3 children... it will be a blast!
 
#12 · (Edited)
In as much as I respect those who don't understand or know the laws which regulate concealed or open carry within the states they travel to, it is important to know that restricting said rights can cause problems.

If the organizing group for this year's summit plan on circumventing the laws of CO regarding firearms, it would be well advised to make that clear on the registration forms so that there are no surprises and people can decide if they want to participate and support an event that has made such a decision.

What alarms me is the negative assumptions made by some that someone who chooses to exercise their right to open carry, might be a "nut" and crack, that this person's mental sanity is open to question because they have a firearm on their hip. Why this leap of fear and uncertainty exists is a mystery to me. I wonder if the Summit committee has proper insurance if someone were to go nuts with a Hi-lift jack handle and start bashing people in the head, I could see that happening way before someone going on a shooting rampage.

The Rising Sun 4x4 club takes lead driver roles very serious, as well. I was told that any group I am leading for Rising Sun, where someone is wearing a side arm, I have the right to tell them to put that away in their vehicle or leave the group.
Chris - with all due respect, I don't believe this statement. Unless Rising Sun posted this restriction within their registration, the individual whim of a trail leader could not arbitrarily decide to kick someone out of a TLCA sanctioned event because they have a personal agenda to pursue. As long as the individual is acting lawfully, one would have no reason to make this request other than pushing their own agenda. This would be no different than, if I were acting as a trail leader, decided that I didn't like the way your child seat was buckled in the vehicle and that it was listed on Consumer Reports as not acceptable, felt it was unsafe and told you that you couldn't participate with that. You could argue that it is "legal" and you are not breaking any laws by doing it that way. I'd get to say..."too bad, I'm the trail leader and I say no, you can't come", I'm sure you would be fine with that, right?

The fact is that, as has been discussed in previous threads about the trails in Ouray...they are public roadways and as long as the laws are being followed, one can't supersede said laws at the whim of the organizers.

I also question your statement that:

they have never had anyone open carry at any TLCA sanctioned event before.
I frankly don't believe that. In fact, we know that's not the case since we both saw people we both know who were doing so at Rubithon '08.

Now, I can see making a request, asking respectfully to secure their firearm in the vehicle but if they refused, I don't see what recourse a trail leader would have. I don't see anywhere on this year's Rubithon registration form nor last year's where any mention of firearms are made. Did it really cause you concern to see Jason walking the trail with his holster/firearm on?

I guess I did well since you apparently didn't know I was carrying also and will continue to so as long as I'm doing it legally and within my rights as a citizen of the country...
 
#13 ·
In as much as I respect those who don't understand or know the laws which regulate concealed or open carry within the states they travel to, it is important to know that restricting said rights can cause problems.

If the organizing group for this year's summit plan on circumventing the laws of CO regarding firearms, it would be well advised to make that clear on the registration forms so that there are no surprises and people can decide if they want to participate and support an event that has made such a decision.

What alarms me is the negative assumptions made by some that someone who chooses to exercise their right to open carry, might be a "nut" and crack, that this person's mental sanity is open to question because they have a firearm on their hip. Why this leap of fear and uncertainty exists is a mystery to me. I wonder if the Summit committee has proper insurance if someone were to go nuts with a Hi-lift jack handle and start bashing people in the head, I could see that happening way before someone going on a shooting rampage.



Chris - with all due respect, I don't believe this statement. Unless Rising Sun posted this restriction within their registration, the individual whim of a trail leader could not arbitrarily decide to kick someone out of a TLCA sanctioned event because they have a personal agenda to pursue. As long as the individual is acting lawfully, one would have no reason to make this request other than pushing their own agenda. This would be no different than, if I were acting as a trail leader, decided that I didn't like the way your child seat was buckled in the vehicle and that it was listed on Consumer Reports as not acceptable, felt it was unsafe and told you that you couldn't participate with that. You could argue that it is "legal" and you are not breaking any laws by doing it that way. I'd get to say..."too bad, I'm the trail leader and I say no, you can't come", I'm sure you would be fine with that, right?

The fact is that, as has been discussed in previous threads about the trails in Ouray...they are public roadways and as long as the laws are being followed, one can't supersede said laws at the whim of the organizers.

I also question your statement that:



I frankly don't believe that. In fact, we know that's not the case since we both saw people we both know who were doing so at Rubithon '08.

Now, I can see making a request, asking respectfully to secure their firearm in the vehicle but if they refused, I don't see what recourse a trail leader would have. I don't see anywhere on this year's Rubithon registration form nor last year's where any mention of firearms are made. Did it really cause you concern to see Jason walking the trail with his holster/firearm on?

I guess I did well since you apparently didn't know I was carrying also and will continue to so as long as I'm doing it legally and within my rights as a citizen of the country...
I was going to try to make it this year, but now I see what it is becoming, and I think I'll hold off. Because I'm turned off.

The idea of FJ Summit "LAWS" is just out of line. Asking is one thing...
Now, I might not have a lot of posts on the forum, but I have been reading it all from the first summit, and I just can't get over the change over three years. The thing is so political that now one of the real "founders" of it, will not even go? Whats up with that.
When you get a lot of 4x4 truck drivers in one place, you will have some head butting. Thats life. Move on. Come to Sturgis on a Harley, it is a blast, but you will see some attitude from time to time. The rule is, if you don't like me, don't hang with me.
The fact is that at no time is, or will the summit be liable for the actions of the people that show up. The real law, is the law. You might have rights as an American, but please remember, so do I.
I thought the Summit would be fun for my wife and I, but I think I'm just better off not going. I can't stand politics on my "off" time.
 
#14 ·
We are taking this seriously. Last year, we immediately checked with Ouray Authorities and hotel management about the side arm issue. They acted accordingly and, I believe, within the law and the rights of all parties involved. ( property owner, police, attendees and those carrying side arms). I can report that significant attention was paid to this unforeseen issue. Since then, I have read this and several other threads regarding this issue and have a pretty good understanding of the concerns and wishes of the many persons involved.

Based on the above. We will have a clear policy ( soft or hard) regarding this issue for this 2009 event. Trail leaders will have clear knowledge of our policy. We will publish this on the FJSummit website as soon as we can. And it is true, ultimately any enforcement of laws is up to the Local Authorities.

We don't want people uncomfortable and we don't want to step on legal rights. It's a bit tough , but thankfully, my opinion is quite neutral regarding these matters. So I can say I am in the middle. Hopefully we can also make suggestions and encourage behavior that is agreeable to all. If we work together as a community, hopefully not only rights, but also wishes will be satisfied.
 
#23 ·
Wow, I have been to both of the Summits and never run into anyone carrying a side arm on there hip...Where the hell was I ....I missed all of the fun damn it. I could care less if you carry a weapon or not, if you decide to show it off at least let me in on the presentation, I might learn a thing or two
Why don't we work as a group and make this one awesome off road event
I'll be there
 
#25 ·
F that!!! They go on blast when we all got back and while fresh in our minds put to words items that worked...and did not. FEELINGS were hurt and were told to put it on hold...IE shut the heck fire up...

The objective of the open forum is to assist other in the same boat (sorry, FJ) by pointing out success and failure, so they can make an informed choice on the matter. I've had plenty of ideas i added here. Not all agreed, but took it as a marker for their needs or projects.
 
#28 ·
Jerry, I appreciate your comments.

If you were carrying, I did not know and that is my point. Keep it to yourself.

In my opinion, if the summit is neutral or supports open carry side arms in the tent area, my family is not attending. That would not be the kind of event I would want to be a part of. No plans to attend the AZ events either.

Side arms on trails is another issue all together and If I saw it on a trail, we would just leave, no big deal.

Not realy going to stress about it, will wait and see how things shake out.

I am not against guns or gun ownership, I grew up hunting with my dad.
 
#31 ·
That would be unfortunate Chris, but of course, your decision. If I get what you are saying, if the two members of the FJSummit committee decide to support/follow the laws of the State of CO and the town of Ouray, you won't participate.

You do know that you live in a state where it is legal to "open carry", that is unless you are in one of the cities (like we have here in NC) that choose to pass laws restricting the state law. And, I could find nothing on the "books" where Ouray is a town that restricts CO open carry laws.

In any event, I guess everyone will sit back and see what Seth and Tim decide to do...
 
#29 ·
I attended last years event with my two kids that were 5 and 7 at the time and we all had a blast. I did see someone carry a sidearm and I personally just though to myself "why"...I get that its because you can and the law says you can....its also another way of saying "look at me."

Beyond that I have never felt more safe or in more of a family environment, it was kinda liike being in Maybury. Lots of kids running around and having a great time with virtually no late night wildness and my room was just behind the main tent at the Best Western.

The vendors, Trail Team, and attendees were all cool! It was great to put a face to the names of so many that I have conversed with on this forum. If you missed the previous Summits I highly suggest not missing this one, you never know if there is going to be another. The trails are not hard and the area is incredible, just take a look at some of the photos that have been posted.

I have a room booked but I am more than likely going to drop it and skip this years event. The economy is what it is and we as a family have decided to make one trip this year and it is going to be something different than last years.

The guys that put this event on do a great job and have a big task in front of them this year. I sincerely hope that Toyota helps out in any way possible since there is no announcement of a Trail Team happening this year. Support what you love!
 
#33 ·
I dont know what happened to you Savvyav but I found that the trail assignments were quite flexible, I missed one run and had no trouble hopping in with another group. On top of that there were independent groups doing runs because most of the organized runs were done pretty early in the day.

The vendors that I spoke with and have visited with since all liked the Summit. So please enlighten us on how vendors got the short end of the stick?
 
#56 ·
I was bumped from every run i signed up for and was "reassigned" on site, to be told once I showed each morn that it was "full". I signed up well in advance and was early to the 7am runs... I'm sure a lot of folks got through fine, but this was the second year this happened (every run this time) so we made the most of it and had a GREAT time, just not of ANY value related to the summit.

I'll let vendor speak for them selves, there were issues, just not my place to vent. I support the vendors, some more than others, just look at my FJ.

I don't feel I received my moneys worth and felt the support after the fact became unglued...obviously due to trouble with in the ranks.

My issue? Lack of follow through and complete shut down after the fact when issues were brought to light as some organizers got there feelings hurt.

Someone seemed to have looked back at feedback (which was quite constructive including positive highlights) and PMed me regarding this. I'm over it now and hope all will have fun as i'm sure they will.

My point is to inform the consumer of a realistic expectation and to plan accordingly.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Not long ago, I started a thread about firearms carry at the 2009 Summit. It was suggested that if I wanted to know what the law was in Ouray and the surrounding county(also Ouray) that I contact the folks that enforce the law. I did and explained what I found. To repeat: the Ouray Police and the County Sheriff follow Colorado law.
Also, I was told by other posters that the reason the person was open carrying was because he was from out of state and CO did not have reciprocity with that particular state so he could not carry concealed. Evidently others were carrying the whole summit, but because they were from states that had reciprocity with CO, they could carry concealed. So maybe it wasn't to be showing off that the person open carried.

In response to the question about why someone needs a gun on a trail near Ouray or on a road in CO or at a family event or driving to or from the event or walking down a quiet street in Ouray: I was told "my question was irrelevant. Rights are not defined on the basis of need and nobody 'needs' a reason to exercise a right. It is an individual's choice, whether she/he exercises a right or not."

In doing some further research, I read recommendations that came in after the last Summit. Under the thread: 'Official Suggestions for next years summit thread': Some folks have said that they would not lead a trail run if anyone had a gun on the trail run. Some have been modifiying their positions since then. Some, who appeared to be part of the leadership said that(p.7 post #68) 'alright before we go into major gun debate - the Summit team has already decided we will respectfully request that no guns are part of next year's event.....we feel this in in the best interest of everyone involved. thank you very much.'

The fact that people come from many different states and that CO does not have reciprocity with some states appears to be creating a problem for some folks who do not like to see people with guns(open carry) around themselves or their families. Others don't want people having guns whether they can see them or not because they are afraid of accidents and don't see any need for people to have them around Ouray or at such an event.

It would be easier if the summit was held in President Obama's home state(sarcasm(why do I 'feel' the 'need' to clarify?)).
 
#45 ·
Ya, the Heller decision basically states a municipality cannot outright ban firearms.

However, it leaves a LOT of wiggle room for "sensible regulation".....which can be twisted to fit whatever agenda you want.

You're not encroaching on the 2nd Amendment if you allow .22LR single shots....b/c you can still own a firearm...it's just not very effective.


**EDIT*** And, to my knowledge, Heller was brought about by Mr. Heller without the NRA (at least at first).
Sean
 
#46 ·
WOW! I have to say that I am quite surprised. What happened to "if you don't have something nice to say....."? Maybe I can't believe this thread because I am neutral on the open carry subject, but, come on guys. This is about the experience! We took our 2 children last year & had a wonderful time. Of course, there were a few things that we would have liked to have been different, but, that's life! Matter of fact, we had such a good time, that we have since talked a few friends into buying a FJ & coming along this year. We have been anxiously awaiting since the day we left last year. Point is, no matter where you go for vacation, what you are involved in, or what you pay for, you can always find something wrong. Glass half full? Or glass half empty? Take the good with the bad. We can't wait to come back!!!!!!!!!
 
#49 ·
That is very sad.

"But Danica couldn't get out. They saw the little girl inside the car as it sank."
 
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