Friction Modifiers - Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum
Transmissions / Transfer Cases / Traction Aids This area is for discussion, questions and problems with the FJ Cruiser's gear train, including topics on A-TRAC, VSC, locking diffs, gear ratios, manual vs. AT, etc.

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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
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Friction Modifiers

Curious if anyone is running any friction modifiers in their diffs, transfer or engine?

Our millwrights/mechanics here at work have been running a FM in our equipment for the last year or so and they keep telling me it is making difference in the performance of the machines (cold starts, smoother running gear boxes,) at a fluid change intervals the oil is looking a lot better than prior.

This is what they are using:

https://www.archoil.com/products/ar9100-oil-additive


I have access to the product (free to me), tempted to give it whirl but as always looking for experiences, thought and yes....opinions.

After Monday and Tuesday even the calender says WTF


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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 03:55 PM
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Re: Friction Modifiers

arch is a funny way to spell snake?
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 05:21 PM
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Re: Friction Modifiers

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mikey previously said: View Post
Curious if anyone is running any friction modifiers in their diffs, transfer or engine?

Our millwrights/mechanics here at work have been running a FM in our equipment for the last year or so and they keep telling me it is making difference in the performance of the machines (cold starts, smoother running gear boxes,) at a fluid change intervals the oil is looking a lot better than prior.

This is what they are using:

https://www.archoil.com/products/ar9100-oil-additive


I have access to the product (free to me), tempted to give it whirl but as always looking for experiences, thought and yes....opinions.
Simple question:
Can your millwrights provide ANY quantitative data of ANY kind to support their “perception” that this magic fluid improves ANY aspect of machine operation?

Multiple oil analyses across multiple engines showing change in PPM of wear metals or contaminants, before and after the snake oil was added?

Meticulous recording of fuel consumption over many hours of constant load operation, across multiple engines?

Reduction of average and peak coolant temperatures over multiple engines at various load levels?

Reduction in gearbox lubricant temperatures under constant load conditions?

Save your $$, don’t contaminate your lubricants with ANY additive with supposedly magical properties.

Change your oil at intervals of 5k to 7k miles, based on oil analyses of YOUR vehicle driven under YOUR operating conditions, using high quality oil with performance and reliability PROVEN over decades and millions of vehicle miles (Mobil 1, etc.).

It might be enlightening to take a look (via Google Earth) at Achoil's "corporate headquarters" in Oxford, CT.
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Last edited by FJtest; 09-18-2019 at 09:09 PM.
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Friction Modifiers

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Simple question:
Can your millwrights provide ANY quantitive data of ANY kind to support their “perception” that this snake oil improves ANY aspect of machine operation?

Multiple oil analyses across multiple engines showing change in PPM of wear metals or contaminants, before and after the snake oil was added?

Meticulous recording of fuel consumption over many hours of constant load operation, across multiple engines?

Reduction of average and peak coolant temperatures over multiple engines at various load levels?

Reduction in gearbox lubricant temperatures under constant load conditions?

Save your $$, don’t contaminate your lubricants with ANY additive with supposedly magical properties.

Change your oil at intervals of 5k to 7k miles, based on oil analyses of YOUR vehicle driven under YOUR operating conditions, using high quality oil with performance and reliability PROVEN over decades and millions of vehicle miles (Mobil 1, etc.).

It might be enlightening to take a look (via Google Earth) at Achoil's "corporate headquarters" in Oxford, CT.
Aside from the fact the mechanic's and millwrights are from eastern Europe who are more in love and in tune with their machines than their wives we have 3rd pty testing/analysis as part of our PM process for these machines. The 3rd pty has seen an improvement in the numbers and have made comments about this in their reports

Now when I say machines I'm referring to CNC turning centers, 4&5&6 axis mills, manual lathes - 14", 18" & 24" hollow spindles, radial and surface grinders. The 14" just went through $60K rebuild on the gearbox and right off the bat in went the FM.
Our guys are also considering adding it to the our ABB robots as well.

I'm not looking to extend my service intervals (I change it 3K miles thank you) BUT if it can help with additional lubricity and protection....I'm willing to try.

Not sure what Google Maps has to do with anything - their office space looks the same as the last company I worked for and that was a $200M/yr business.

On the flip side - do you have any hard data to show that FM or other treatments DO NOT work as advertised?

After Monday and Tuesday even the calender says WTF


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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 11:34 PM
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Re: Friction Modifiers

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Aside from the fact the mechanic's and millwrights are from eastern Europe who are more in love and in tune with their machines than their wives we have 3rd pty testing/analysis as part of our PM process for these machines. The 3rd pty has seen an improvement in the numbers and have made comments about this in their reports. (snip)
What sort of "testing analysis" are you referring to? Oil analysis?

If so, please share comparable "before and after" analysis reports for the same machine with the same number of operating hours, etc. so the only difference in the operating conditions was the addition of the magic fluid. No problem with obscuring company name, etc.

I'would be especially interested in the test data that were so remarkable that they elicited special commentary from the test lab.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 12:56 AM
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Re: Friction Modifiers

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On the flip side - do you have any hard data to show that FM or other treatments DO NOT work as advertised?
I think the problem here is that you're adding an unknown to the equation. Oil/Grease manufacturers guarantee their product will perform the job intended as delivered not diluted. Who knows if these additives are fully compatible when combined and could create an unintended side effect. Their non-existent warranty isn't really confidence inspiring, they only site a federal act as your only protection. Are you prepared to fight these guys in court if your machine blows up?

Quote:
The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act allows consumers to use additives of their choice without their warranty being voided, except for in circumstances where specific additives have been noted as incompatible.

You also need to take into account gaskets, and seals that could be comprised of incompatible materials as well. I used the term snake oil pretty loosely, I don't doubt that this stuff has some effect. I just don't think it's worth risking on expensive equipment, or other that has been designed/proven to work fine with normal products already.
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 06:07 AM
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Re: Friction Modifiers

My question about this sort of thing (without any actual knowledge of this particular product) is that if it is so great I am sure the automotive manufacturers would be using and recommending it for their vehicles. But they are not.

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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 07:27 AM
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Re: Friction Modifiers

Mikey, I wonder if the equipment where you work uses a multi-viscosity grade oil in the gear boxes, engines, bearing assemblies, etc. Many times the design of large equipment has nooks and crannies that when draining and replacing oil captures and holds residue oil that becomes sludgy over time. Replacement oil may dislodge small globs of sludge that result in viscosity abnormalities contributing to cold start issues and inefficiencies. Rarely do you find large equipment running synthetic oils (just too expensive). The oil refinery where I worked in Kansas (retired 5 years ago) used Royal Purple to combat viscosity and wear problems in large equipment. Also, note that large equipment running continuously for long periods, and sometimes at varying loads. Most times equipment runs until it is convenient or maintenance required to shutdown and service. Only critical equipment have hour meters on the operation.

Pertaining to the FJ, I used synthetics in the differentials and transfer case, Toyota magic potion in the automatic transmission (about to change out for the second time), but good quality dino oil (not synthetic) in the engine. I change the engine oil and filter every 3-5,000 miles. Also, I live in Arizona now (4 years since moving from Kansas) so cold temperature are not experienced.

Your mechanics from eastern Europe didn't have access to high quality lubricants (or ability to override upper management decision to purchase lubricants) during their tenure in the old world. I'm not suggesting that you try to change your mechanics' preferences for large machinery, but I'm not sure it applies to vehicles manufactured after 2000. Especially, when we service our vehicles at specific mileage intervals. Finally, passenger cars and light trucks don't typically see as severe service as large equipment experiences.

There are several additives for sale that claim to improve wear and life of engines, transmissions, and differentials, as well as gasoline additives claim fuel efficiencies. These products would not sell at all unless they claimed improvement. So, the final question is how much benefit (if any can be accurately quantified) versus cost is justified by the consumer.

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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Friction Modifiers

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Serenity Now previously said: View Post
My question about this sort of thing (without any actual knowledge of this particular product) is that if it is so great I am sure the automotive manufacturers would be using and recommending it for their vehicles. But they are not.
Why would any manufacture recommend a product that could prolong the life of their products - that would be taking money out of their pockets when it comes time for repairs, service calls etc? Imagine how much more expensive something would be to offset that loss?

Right now I am neither for or against any FM or additives I just like to explore all point of view.

After Monday and Tuesday even the calender says WTF


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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 09:54 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Friction Modifiers

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FJtest previously said: View Post
What sort of "testing analysis" are you referring to? Oil analysis?

If so, please share comparable "before and after" analysis reports for the same machine with the same number of operating hours, etc. so the only difference in the operating conditions was the addition of the magic fluid. No problem with obscuring company name, etc.

I'would be especially interested in the test data that were so remarkable that they elicited special commentary from the test lab.
We have regular testing done on the lubricants, cutting fluids, honing oils etc.

I can appreciate that you are hard data and numbers individual but I can not share internal documents even if they are edited....I like my job.

After Monday and Tuesday even the calender says WTF


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