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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Necessary, hinderance, might be nice???

What do you all think about active traction VSC? What does it do, is it worth buying both the CQ and the UP packages to get? Or more importantly, what are you missing out on if you don't want to buy those packages???
 

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granger said:
Necessary, hinderance, might be nice???

What do you all think about active traction VSC? What does it do, is it worth buying both the CQ and the UP packages to get?
Honestly it is gonna depend on your driving. VSC All track is basically going to make the vehicle's drivetrain like the 4runner's. It will have an AWD mode and a 4WD mode with locking center diff.

The other version will be like the Tacoma drivetrain. 4wd with a locking rear.

Does everybody understand the difference between AWD and 4WD?

Here are the BASIC differences: In an AWD the differencials are open, allowing the wheel speed to vary side to side and front to back as needed. In a 4WD some wheels are forced to turn at the same speed. This makes AWD better for driving in slightly slippery conditions or on dry pavement. (have you ever put a truck in 4WD and turned a circle on dry pavement? It will skip and bind because wheels that need to turn at different paces aren't allowed to.)

VSC and TRAC are systems that will only work in an AWD. These systems will use the brakes to automatically give you better control of your vehicle. TRAC for example works kinda like a high tech limited slip. IN an AWD the differential is open, therefore power to the wheels is sent to the path of least resistance: That means if you have a wheel on ice, it will spin like crazy and the wheel accross from it will receive no power. TRAC will use the brake to grab the wheel that is spinning (thus giving it more resistance) and force the power to the side with traction.
VSC is Vehicle stability Control and it is basically a system with a YAW sensor and a stearing wheel sensor, if the system senses that those two don't match (if you were fishtailing for example) it will use the ABS system on specific wheels to help you regain control. I have taken VSC vehicles out on thick ice and TRIED to make them spin out of control...I couldn't.

I LOVE AWD because I live in snow-country. I need AWD more than I will use my 4WD. But if you live in Tucson or something you may not need it. However, I always recommend it because it has saved my butt more than once.

I know this may have been useless info for some of you...but you'd be amazed the amount of people that think that AWD and 4WD are the same thing.

hope this helps
 

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Toyotaman said:
I know this may have been useless info for some of you...but you'd be amazed the amount of people that think that AWD and 4WD are the same thing.

hope this helps

No, actually there might be some on here too embarassed to ask the question. I always assumed they were one in the same til a few years ago. Sometimes I need to be reminded myself.
 

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Keep in mind that most 4x4 have open diffs both the front and rear, that's why I'm getting the locking rear diff. I've seen and been stuck when I've had RF LR both in the air (just spining away) as the power all goes to the wheel with no traction Get the locking diff if you are going to do wheelin it's worth it!!
 

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AWD with locking diff's gets you the best of both worlds.

My 2003 4Runner is Full time AWD but also has a rear locker. (I guess front and center lockers would be nice but so far this set-up has been enough)

I like the VSC on the road, albeit it is a little overreactive sometimes. When in low range the VSC is disabled.
 

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ToyBox said:
AWD with locking diff's gets you the best of both worlds.
Thats not true, AWD does not have a low range, and usually the center differential cannot be locked. Most AWD systems don't use a center differential anyways, the are viscously coupled.

However, to confuse it further, some 4wd systems have a 4x4 full time, which is essentially AWD, but it is still a two speed transfer case.

Manufacturers, to really confuse consumers, have blured the lines between 4wd and AWD. For instance, the Highlander has a badge that says "4wd" while it is in fact AWD.
 

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mpd8488 said:
Thats not true, AWD does not have a low range, and usually the center differential cannot be locked. Most AWD systems don't use a center differential anyways, the are viscously coupled.

However, to confuse it further, some 4wd systems have a 4x4 full time, which is essentially AWD, but it is still a two speed transfer case.

Manufacturers, to really confuse consumers, have blured the lines between 4wd and AWD. For instance, the Highlander has a badge that says "4wd" while it is in fact AWD.
I knew it! I was debating whether to call it full time 4wd or awd. :confused:

Oh well I don't care what they call it, I know what I have.

It is full time 4wd with a two speed transfer case and a rear locker! :)
 

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Now that you guys have confused me for the moment, I am going to get 4 wheel drive with rear locker , correct ?!?! Thats all I need
 

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Don't worry buba, all 4wd FJs will have a selectable two speed transfer case, none of that AWD or "automatic 4wd" B.S. like you find in the highlander or RAV4
 

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Cool. That means I don't want VSC or Track. I want all my wheels spinning the same. I know how to drive, I don't want the car assuming it knows what I am trying to do. If I could get it without ABS, I would. Bring back power brakes for cryin' out loud.
 

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Sorry didn't mean to cause MORE confusion...I was refering "Full time 4WD" as "AWD" because that seems to make the destiction more clear for people. ALL 4x4 FJ'S WILL HAVE BOTH HIGH AND LOW RANGE. THe low range will cause the "fulll time 4wd" to become traditional 4wd (it will skip on dry pavement).

Someone said that they had a 4runner with "fulltime 4wd" and a rear locker...I think you probably need to check that ...It will be a center locker.

And to the guy that said he didn't need VSC because he knows how to drive: You will thank yourself for getting it the first time you hit black ice, or unexpected gravel on a sharp corner. I'm not saying you are wrong, there is something to be said for the offroad capability of a rear locker as opposed to a center...just a matter of preference.

Let me know if I screwed anything else up.
 

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If you are a good driver and know the physics of your vehicle then VSC become a hindrance because it interferes with your steering, braking, and throttle input. VSC probably eliminates all driver feedback through the pedals and steering wheel, which can tell you when you are pushing your vehicle limits. I know I can feel a vehicle's physical limits through the pedals, steering wheel, body roll, vehicle sounds, etc, and I would not like to loose that because a little computer chip is tells the car what to do.

The same goes for ABS. It only uses about 75% of the vehicle total stopping ability. Pumping the brakes uses even less of the cars potential than ABS, and locking the wheels uses something around half of the stopping ability. Threshold braking will allow the driver to utilize upwards of 90% of the vehicle's stopping ability while maintaining steering control, and it is surprisingly easy to learn and apply in the real world (I learned on a racetrack and have used it out on the road in some instances, it become natural, just like rowing gears in a stick shift). I was able to stop a police package Chevy Caprice (one heavy ass car, mind you) from about 75 mph in about sixty-seventy feet.

Those systems were designed for all the people who don't know what to do behind the wheel if an emergency arrises. There is no emergency vehicle handling taught in the U.S. so hardly anybody knows what to do in those situations. A lot of people get lucky, but hardly any know what they are actually doing in an emergency maneuver.
 

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mpd8488 said:
If you are a good driver and know the physics of your vehicle then VSC become a hindrance because it interferes with your steering, braking, and throttle input. VSC probably eliminates all driver feedback through the pedals and steering wheel, which can tell you when you are pushing your vehicle limits. I know I can feel a vehicle's physical limits through the pedals, steering wheel, body roll, vehicle sounds, etc, and I would not like to loose that because a little computer chip is tells the car what to do.

The same goes for ABS. It only uses about 75% of the vehicle total stopping ability. Pumping the brakes uses even less of the cars potential than ABS, and locking the wheels uses something around half of the stopping ability. Threshold braking will allow the driver to utilize upwards of 90% of the vehicle's stopping ability while maintaining steering control, and it is surprisingly easy to learn and apply in the real world (I learned on a racetrack and have used it out on the road in some instances, it become natural, just like rowing gears in a stick shift). I was able to stop a police package Chevy Caprice (one heavy ass car, mind you) from about 75 mph in about sixty-seventy feet.

Those systems were designed for all the people who don't know what to do behind the wheel if an emergency arrises. There is no emergency vehicle handling taught in the U.S. so hardly anybody knows what to do in those situations. A lot of people get lucky, but hardly any know what they are actually doing in an emergency maneuver.
EXACTLY my point. I don't want the car to try and correct my input. The car is not the thinking entity, I am. The only accident I have ever been in was CAUSED NOT BY MY DRIVING, but by the pressence of ABS brakes. I hate those damn things. A skid is controllable. Stopping a vehicle with ABS is NOT. I have spent half my life on snow and ice. It is EASY to drive on snow and ice if you know what you're doing. Having your vehicle second guess your driver input adjustments to breaking or stearing is an equation for disaster.

I can appreciate auto makers looking out for unskilled drivers. The problem is, their "improvements" take the control away from the driver.
 

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Your right Percy. I can drive bad all by myself. I don't need any help from a vehicle :D I have been know to make some bad decisions on the trail (in the past) so need to know that all four wheels are doing what I want. Also makes me look good .
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Does full time 4x4 (as to be seen in the FJ) affect fuel efficency? I have a 2003 Dodge Dakota Quad with full time 4wd and I get 13.7 mpg. A friend with the same truck sans full time 4wd gets 17-18. Will toyota's be any different?
 

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granger said:
A-Trac does, not sure about the VSC
VSC is on all the time on all models with all packages. This is just something we have to deal with thanks to all the people that can't drive and would sue Toyota when they crashed because the vehicle didn't save them :( rant off)

That being said, let's just hope VSC is not too intrusive. On the other hand , the A-Trac button on the dash is to turn it ON. The default setting is OFF and you get to choose when you want to use it offroad. It will also still work when the rear diff lock is ON.

Jason
 

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i have a solution: buy a Factory Service Manual and a set of Dikes (diagonal cutters, not Dykes :D) and the day the warranty expires, no more STAR safety BS.
 

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n6opv said:
VSC is on all the time on all models with all packages. This is just something we have to deal with thanks to all the people that can't drive and would sue Toyota when they crashed because the vehicle didn't save them :( rant off)

That being said, let's just hope VSC is not too intrusive. On the other hand , the A-Trac button on the dash is to turn it ON. The default setting is OFF and you get to choose when you want to use it offroad. It will also still work when the rear diff lock is ON.

Jason
"A TRAC" is the same mode as AWD or Full-Time 4wd...there are two many damn names for the same freakin thing. Locking any diff, center or rear, will cancel this mode. A Trac is the selection to go from 4x2 to AWD and then locking the diff will make it 4wd with NO VSC OR TRAC. These systems are pretty damn good...I know you guys are against them and God knows I aint tryin to sell you on them but I think it'll grow on you. (even you race track trained guys.) and you can turn it off when you are going to offroad, because that IS when it gets intrusive.

By the way isn't the whole purpose of ABS to help you maintain steering control while stopping? I didn't think it was meant to stop you any faster, but to allow you to control the vehicle's path because you can't in a skid.
 
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