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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
For you guys who paid cash (check) for your FJ ... did you have to put your SSN in the application/paperwork? I find it quite disturbing that the paperwork for buying a car - even without financing - includes all the information an identity thief can use: name, address, driver's license and SSN.

I know they need to make sure the check is good, but I even offered to go to the bank (just across the street) and get a certified/cashier's check - and they could have come with me to make sure it was good.

I asked the salesman and he said something related to any deal over $10K has to be reported due to new homeland security laws.

What do you guys think? Have you had to give your SSN when paying cash for a car? Have you managed to refuse giving the SSN out and still got the car?

Am I overly paranoid? I wasn't like that until we were victim of an attempted identify theft a couple of years ago.

How are your protecting yourself from ID theft?

Alberto
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes.:cheers:
To which of the (in retrospective) many questions?

I suspect the one about being paranoid :boohoo: :lol:

Alberto
 

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I would tell the dealer to pound sand up where the sun don't shine. Show me the federal law that requires what they're requesting, and I might listen.

I'm all for security in our country, but I have a hard time understanding why anyone paying cash is instantly considered "suspect"....suspected of what, I might add?
 

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That is what your social security number is for, identification. The government issues your little number, so if they require you to provide it back to them as proof of identity, I don't see the problem.
 

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House, cars etc... I pay $5k at a time over a fer weeks. This avoids it being reported. The dealer will hold the cash until the full amount is there. You could also pay with a credit card a just pat it off $5k at a time over a few weeks.
My way is to avoid the tax man. Same deal.
 

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There is a federal law I can't cite it, but it basically says, anything over $10,000.00, cash and the dealer is required to report it to our uncle.
It keeps drug dealers from flying under the radar with cash purchases .
I suppose it works for other things too
 

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Had to do it for the 1st time in '07. Dealer explained it was a homeland security requirement for vehicle cash deals over $10k.

My FJC was cash, but individual to individual, no requirement there that I or the seller knew of.

No big deal, the banks/casinos etc. ask for SS number/ID all the time.
 

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There is a federal law I can't cite it, but it basically says, anything over $10,000.00, cash and the dealer is required to report it to our uncle.
It keeps drug dealers from flying under the radar with cash purchases .
I suppose it works for other things too

Up here anything over $5,000 cash has to be reported by the seller to the RCMP.
 

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I would tell the dealer to pound sand up where the sun don't shine. Show me the federal law that requires what they're requesting, and I might listen.

I'm all for security in our country, but I have a hard time understanding why anyone paying cash is instantly considered "suspect"....suspected of what, I might add?
It's been going on since about 1970. Take a look at this page from the IRS.
As someone who has worked in a casino, and is now working for The Fed, I can tell you it is a very real law.

Some more info links:
United States Code: Title 31,5313. Reports on domestic coins and currency transactions | LII / Legal Information Institute

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:
 

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it for money laundering any deposit or with draw over 10K from an account that does not typically see that kind of movement is reported to the feds.

one option is get an offshore account grand caymen orPanama. They are both very open to helping you avoid the uncle.
 

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It's a federal law. Commonly referred to as CTR. Refusal or failure to comply triggers a second process called SAR. CTR = Currency Transaction Report. SAR Suspicious Activity Report. Here is a link to the CTR form itself which is filled out and filed. http://www.fincen.gov/forms/files/fin104_ctr.pdf

It is not something new from homeland security. The program began in the mid 80's. It was originally intended as a tool to help law enforcement identify money laundering. Mostly to combat organized crime, drug dealing and other illegal business. Homeland security, IRS, and various other federal agencies may also find this information of use.

This was part of my job and the fines and penaties for not following this procedure can be very severe. I was required to get certified every year and I have seen people lose their jobs for not adhering to the prodedure. It is usually done without the knowledge of the customer since we would usually have all the required information on file from people doing large transactions or we had enough information where our resources allowed us to look up any missing data. If you are asked to supply the missing information and refuse this triggers a SAR. If you try to break down your tranactions (as someone suggested in an earlier post) this is considered structuring and this triggers a SAR. If you try to cancel the tranaction in order to avoid the CTR this triggers SAR. If I allow you to do any of these or take part in doing them myself I could end up in a federal jail and the institution I worked for could face a million dollar fine.

You are much better off complying with the CTR procedure than causing a problem and forcing someone to report you with SAR. The Fed doesn't care about most of the CTRs it gets, but every SAR is a red flag.
 

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Interesting. I suppose 123-54-6789 is not a good idea these days.
 

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To which of the (in retrospective) many questions?

I suspect the one about being paranoid :boohoo: :lol:

Alberto
Yes to the SSN to pay cash for a vehicle. No, not paranoid.
 

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I asked the salesman and he said something related to any deal over $10K has to be reported due to new homeland security laws.
Yes, for cash deals, though I wouldn't exactly call it "new". It was part of Title III of the USA PATRIOT Act:

United States Code: Title 31,5331. Reports relating to coins and currency received in nonfinancial trade or business

Interestingly enough, it looks like you should be able to avoid these requirements if you use a check drawn on your account (see the Scope of Application at the bottom of the link). The reason for that is—as another poster mentioned—the financial institution will be already be reporting a CTR to FinCEN for your check anyway.

There may be other laws that are applicable, but the USA PATRIOT Act was the only one that I have heard about that was applicable to non-financial institutions/money transfer agents.

I guess it depends on how firm you are about nondisclosure of your SSN. If your dealer won't play ball, perhaps a different dealer will. As you said, you are paying by check and not via three straps of C notes.

House, cars etc... I pay $5k at a time over a fer weeks. This avoids it being reported.
Actually, that's called "structuring", and it has been illegal since the Bank Secrecy Act was passed in 1970 (hint: the "secrecy" is the banks & government keeping secrets from you). However, the penalties for structuring were "improved" by the USA PATRIOT Act (Title III again):

United States Code: Title 31,5324. Structuring transactions to evade reporting requirement prohibited

Looks to be good for a five year stint in "federal, pound me in the ass" prison... unless there are aggravating circumstances, whereupon the penalties are increased.
 

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There is a federal law I can't cite it, but it basically says, anything over $10,000.00, cash and the dealer is required to report it to our uncle.
It keeps drug dealers from flying under the radar with cash purchases .
I suppose it works for other things too
10k is the magic number... bank deposits, customs, car purchases, home purchases,,, anything over 10k cash must be reported and is subject to investigation.
 

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I pay cash for all my cars and don't remember being asked for my SS #. Just bought a new VW a month or two ago, and I'm pretty sure I didn't give them my social - but I'm not paranoid about it either. Lots of people already have it, and my credit reports are frozen so it's not going to do anyone much good anyway. :shrug:
 
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