Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum banner

21 - 35 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,104 Posts
(big snip) A 5w-40 approaches 16cS which is too thick for the needs of the FJ at operating temps.
Two points:

1. It's not clear why you are using the term "flow rate"; the lubricant characteristic is "kinematic viscosity". The unit of measure is the Stoke; for typical engine oils, centistokes (Cs) is a more useful unit. "Flow rate" relative to an engine's lubrication system is based on oil pump volumetric delivery, the pressure drop (resistance to flow) through the engine's oil galleries and across plain (rod and main) bearings, and the kinematic viscosity of the lubricant.

2. Can your provide any information from any source that would support your assertion that 5W-40 is "too thick" for use in a 1GR-FE engine at normal operating temperature?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Hey Fred,

Good decision....Your post highlites my point that Ford has determined also that the viscosity (flow rate) of the synthetic oil in their engines, even the big 6.2 is about 10cS at operating temp. (5w-20 doesnt cut it, as the viscosity is 8 at operating temp) Synthetic oil does not break down since the base oil they use and the man-made molecules are exactly the same and creates very little friction and has excellent lubrication and adhesion qualities. The viscosity of the oil through your motor is key. You cant go wrong with the 0w-30 since your flow rate at start up and at operating temp is pretty close to perfect. Since the synthetic oil by definition does not really break down, you just need to change it at say 7500 max. This is because the TBN (additive package containing detergents and extra lubricants like zinc are pretty much worn out at 7500 in Mobile 1. I have checked this by sending oil to the Blackstone lab at different mileage intervals. The Mobile 1 TBN package starts new out of the can at I believe a 9, and at 7500 miles can approach a 2. Dont want to go much below that. Your engine will still get the lubrication qualities of the oil but not the extra protection the detergents and anti rust additives give your engine. Your car manual probably calls for oil change at 10k? I wouldnt go 10k unless you use Amsoil 0w-30 as the additve package is more robust with the TBN package starts at a 12. The oil is also almost double the cost though. Once again, just my opinion.

Your FJ will do well on the 0w-30 blend.
I do oil changes at 5K as we are in a Ag area with lots of dirt and coupled with towing, which is severe duty , again puts me at 5K. Wally world has Mobil 1 0-30 at the same price as the other viscosities here. $22.88 to $25-26 depending on current sale for 5 quarts. Thanks for your information, most helpful!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
439 Posts
Two points:

1. It's not clear why you are using the term "flow rate"; the lubricant characteristic is "kinematic viscosity". The unit of measure is the Stoke; for typical engine oils, centistokes (Cs) is a more useful unit. "Flow rate" relative to an engine's lubrication system is based on oil pump volumetric delivery, the pressure drop (resistance to flow) through the engine's oil galleries and across plain (rod and main) bearings, and the kinematic viscosity of the lubricant.

2. Can your provide any information from any source that would support your assertion that 5W-40 is "too thick" for use in a 1GR-FE engine at normal operating temperature?
FJtest,

I agree with your first point above. Thats why I explained in my #13 post, page 2, what kinematic viscosity is and I used "flow rate" as just a good visual. Yes the proper terminology is centiStokes (cSt), but most people including myself wouldnt recognize a centiStoke if we stepped on one.....For purposes of our discussion here i think "flow rate" gets the point across, IMO.

Your second sentence is somewhat confusing to me in that oil pump "volumetric delivery" is a whole separate issue/discussion for another day. I have been assuming that the oil pumps
in our FJ's are working as intended and designed by Toyota across the full range of RPM's. Heres why: when engine manufacturers design and build these engines, they dont build the oil pump first. Once the engine is built and the bugs worked out and the dyno tests are completed, its the engine itself that dictates what the oil demands are. The oil demands including the kinematic viscosity at operating temps, are then determined to keep the bearings and their metal counterparts with film of oil between them. So it is the engine configuration when all is said and done that dictates the grade oil necessary to properly lube the engine. Now are there issues that co-exist at the time of designing new engines ie, gas mileage, longevity, horse power, torque etc., of course. And are we splitting hairs in our discussion of oil grades, probably. But, if it wasnt important there wouldnt be all the different grades of oil.

As to your second point, there is no one source that states that 5w-40 is "too thick" for our Fj's. That is MY OPINION (FWIW) after much reading about oil in general and synthetics in particular.
Heres my thoughts on the issue. The early Fj's til 2010 called for 5w-30 (cSt of 10.4 at operating temp) oil in the owners manual. When CAFE came into play and the mandates for higher gas mileage in cars, Toyota with
their new engine, recommended a 0w-20 "gas saving" blend be used (8.7 cSt). Even the 0w-20 oil bottle says it on front. I have not read anywhere that the oil change recomendation from 5w-30 to 0w-20 was done for any reason OTHER than gas savings. And to a VERY small extent, it does that. But at what cost IMO does it diminish the protection the engine needs at full operating temps.

The standard "passenger car engine" from our Fj's, to the 650 HP Zo6 Corvette, call for Kinematic viscosity at operating temps to be about 10 cSt (+/-). The Corvette calls for 5w-30 Moblie 1
(standard fill from Chevy dexos 1 specs). If you look at the specs on the oil in my above post, you will see the grades of oil that fall with in the 10 cSt range are 0w-30, 5w-30, 10w-30.
So, unfortunately, I think Toyota's decision to go to a lighter oil was done for reasons OTHER than engine longevity. I know to some, thats hard to believe. Will 0w-20 hurt your engine, perhaps not during the warranty period, but it wont be a 150,000 mile engine either, IMHO........

BTW, the Dexos 1 specs (since 2011) are Chevy's required oil specs (Mostly high grade additive package) for all its engines across the spectrum. The 5w-40 for some reason which I am not aware of, does not meet these specs in either Amsoil or Moblie 1....Mobile 1 5w-40 is actually a diesel/gas blend application.

My opinions are just that; my opinions. I do not consider myself an expert on oil. I research the crap out of some things, and then draw my own conclusions. Everyone on this forum is free to use whatever oil they desire. My intent is not to start a forum argument with anybody on oil. I think one of the many reasons this forum is so great is the exchange of ideas and ways to do various things to our FJ's. It has been a tremendous help to me in the past years and I hope that if this thread can help someone, great. If not, thats okay too. :cheers:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Given the temp spread where you live, 40F-120F, which is not too different from where I live in Florida during summer months, I would use 0-30w or 5-30w.
The 5-40w that was used on your FJ IMO is too heavy, (thick when hot) when the engine reaches operating temp. Society of Automotive Engineers (S.A.E.) who
certify all the rules ref oil performance, state that the first # (5) is the viscosity (ability of the oil to flow at a given temp) of the oil at cold start up. A "cold" start is any start that is not at full operating temp.
The 5 designates that the oil will flow at -30F and the 30W will have a specific viscosity at full operating temp which is designed by the engine manufacturer.
Bottom line, you will be fully protected using the 5W-30. This assumes you are using your FJ for "normal" type stuff. I personally use 0w-30 Mobile 1 synthetic since my FJ was new
in 2011 and with 90k on the clock it runs beautifully and I do not burn or leak 1 drop of oil. Just make sure you change your oil, IMO, at 6000 miles if you use synthetic with a new filter.
Some people on this forum go longer, but 6000 between changes is very safe. The TBN additive levels at 6k is still very adequate.
BTW, IMO the 0-20w that is in your manual was put there primarily to give the best gas mileage for these engines NOT necessarily the BEST protection. Will it damage your engine, NO.
But it is not the BEST weight for ALL applications. My FJ sees a fair amount of cold weather in Colorado too, hence the 0w-30.

The subject of oil can take weeks to fully discuss. If your interested theres tons of oil info online and in this forum. Lots of opinions too. This is just my .02......:rocker:

Right on the money. My 2010 has 143K and the 0w-20 is just too thin here in FL. I run it with 5w-30 and it's smooth!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
192 Posts
This is not correct.

Here is a copy of the oil recommendation page from the Owner's Manual for a 2014 FJC sold in the Gulf States. Vehicles sold in this region have exactly the same 1GR-FE engine as FJCs sold in the US, but do not have to meet the EPA's CAFE fuel economy requirements and therefore can use higher viscosity oils that are optimized for engine durability.

For temperatures from 20F to 100F+, 20W-50 is recommended.


Exactly what I have followed for every vehicle I have owned and for Philippines its always been 5W-40 especially when I face long stop and go traffic under hot sun freequently. In NY it was 5W-30 for winters and 5W-40 for summers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,104 Posts
When talking about oil viscosity, cold starts, dwell time in getting full oil pressure to the main and rod bearings, etc., you also have to take into consideration the significant differences in the oil supply system between the 2002-2009 and 2010+ 1GR-FE engines.

The single-VVTi engines had an extremely easy to service, screw-on filter that took literally 45 seconds to replace, with no effing around with skid plates, incorrectly-positioned O-rings, wrong (or no) oil filter elements, etc. However, the downside was an extremely long oil gallery, from the oil pump at the lower front of the engine, all the way up above the LH cylinder head to the filter, and then all the way back down to the crankshaft, possibly four feet for the oil to travel to get to the bearings (if the oil galleries "leaked down" between starts).

In the dual VVTi engines, the filter was relocated to the lower front of the engine, mere inches from the oil pump and the crank. Compared to the no-brainer earlier engine, changing the filter became a real PITA if you've got full aftermarket skid plates without filter access, but the total oil gallery length was inches instead of feet, and almost certainly results in full oil pressure at the bearings significantly faster than the early engines, at least at low temperatures.

I have no insight into why Toyota redesigned the oiling system at the same time they redesigned the cylinder heads and added the VVTi to the exhaust camshafts, but the bottom line is that they did perform a major redesign of the lubrication system.

In any case, changing the oil regularly with high quality synthetic, using Toyota OEM filters, using a minimum oil viscosity of 5W-30 or 10W-30 (except in true arctic conditions, where you need a block heater anyway), allowing the engine coolant temp to reach 100F before driving away, and limiting engine speed to 1500 RPM until full coolant temp is reached will help your engine reach 300K miles without any bearing wear problems.
 

·
トヨタ Master
Joined
·
5,765 Posts
I would just add that in 3rd world countries, it is not always easy to find specialty or high end synthetic motor oils. Toyota surely knows this, as they market similar platforms with the 4.0 all over the globe. Grade SL or SN oils are common place everywhere, hence the variety of what Toyota deems acceptable. When you have to change your oil in BFE Argentina, they may only have "cheap" filters and conventional 5W30, 10W30, 10W40, 15W40, 20W50, or SAE 30 to chose from. You may just get what you get and Toyota knows this from years and years of producing for world markets. Better quality bearings, materials, etc, help to make up for the dysfunction of economics. This is one reason that Toyota is one, if not the most reliable brand on the planet.

While the FJ Cruiser is not the same, it does share much DNA with the Land Cruiser.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
960 Posts
When talking about oil viscosity, cold starts, dwell time in getting full oil pressure to the main and rod bearings, etc., you also have to take into consideration the significant differences in the oil supply system between the 2002-2009 and 2010+ 1GR-FE engines.

The single-VVTi engines had an extremely easy to service, screw-on filter that took literally 45 seconds to replace, with no effing around with skid plates, incorrectly-positioned O-rings, wrong (or no) oil filter elements, etc. However, the downside was an extremely long oil gallery, from the oil pump at the lower front of the engine, all the way up above the LH cylinder head to the filter, and then all the way back down to the crankshaft, possibly four feet for the oil to travel to get to the bearings (if the oil galleries "leaked down" between starts).

In the dual VVTi engines, the filter was relocated to the lower front of the engine, mere inches from the oil pump and the crank. Compared to the no-brainer earlier engine, changing the filter became a real PITA if you've got full aftermarket skid plates without filter access, but the total oil gallery length was inches instead of feet, and almost certainly results in full oil pressure at the bearings significantly faster than the early engines, at least at low temperatures.

I have no insight into why Toyota redesigned the oiling system at the same time they redesigned the cylinder heads and added the VVTi to the exhaust camshafts, but the bottom line is that they did perform a major redesign of the lubrication system.

In any case, changing the oil regularly with high quality synthetic, using Toyota OEM filters, using a minimum oil viscosity of 5W-30 or 10W-30 (except in true arctic conditions, where you need a block heater anyway), allowing the engine coolant temp to reach 100F before driving away, and limiting engine speed to 1500 RPM until full coolant temp is reached will help your engine reach 300K miles without any bearing wear problems.
Quick question for you:

I did 5w30 myself, at home after I bought it. We were on the road, and had a Toyota dealer do it, and they did 0w20. Curious, if one is on the road and needs servicing, do USA Toyota dealers usually do a different oil than specified (as in if we asked for 10w30, ) or do they usually do what's written in owners manual? Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,104 Posts
Quick question for you:

I did 5w30 myself, at home after I bought it. We were on the road, and had a Toyota dealer do it, and they did 0w20. Curious, if one is on the road and needs servicing, do USA Toyota dealers usually do a different oil than specified (as in if we asked for 10w30, ) or do they usually do what's written in owners manual? Thanks
I can't speak for any Toyota dealers, but in the majority of dealerships I’ve observed, oil changes are frequently handled by the most junior, least-experienced guy on the totem pole.

Your request for a specific oil viscosity may not have been effectively communicated to the tech. Or, the tech may have simply not even looked at the Service Order, having been told the vehicle was in for an oil change. Maybe the last oil change he did was on a late model FJ that specified 0W-20, and the tech blindly assumed that all FJs used the same viscosity.

If I ever need take a vehicle into any shop for any kind of service, and want something specifically done in a particular way, I make sure that the special instructions are clearly and boldly written on the face of the Service Order in black felt pen, and make sure that the Service Writer agrees to be personally responsible to communicate the instructions to the tech, and get acknowledgment from the tech that he understands the instructions.

This is why I perform 99.6% of the service work on my vehicles myself.

For instance, when I go in to Discount Tire every 5K miles for rotation & balance (part of the 0.4% of work I don't perform myself), I specifically request that NO AIR TOOLS are used to loosen OR tighten the spline lug nuts and the locking nut, only breaker bar and torque wrench. This is a lesson-learned from a long-ago experience at a dealership where the special key for a locking nut had been damaged by air-tool use during tire rotation, and of course the tech didn't mention it when the vehicle was returned.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
960 Posts
I cant speak for any Toyota dealers, but in the majority of dealerships I’ve observed, oil changes are frequently handled by the most junior, least-experienced guy on the totem pole.

Your request for a specific oil viscosity may not have been effectively communicated to the tech. Or, the tech may have simply not even looked at the Service Order, having been told the vehicle was in for an oil change. Maybe the last oil change he did was on a late model FJ that specified 0W-20, and the tech blindly assumed that all FJs used the same viscosity.

If I ever need take a vehicle into any shop for any kind of service, and want something specifically done in a particular way, I make sure that the special instructions are clearThy and boldly written on the face of the WO in black felt pen, and make sure that the Service Writer agrees to be personally responsible to communicate the instructions to the tech, and get acknowledgment from the tech that he understands the instructions.

(This is why I perform 99.6% of the service work on my vehicles myself.)
Thank you. That makes sense what you say about the tech.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
Was just reading this thread and appreciated the insight. My 2014 is just out of warranty, so I'm planning to change viscosity to either M1 5w-30 (by the case at Costco) or Amsoil 0W-30 (w online membership). I run Amsoil in the FJ diffs. I live in Eastern WA where winter temps get to below freezing and summers are 90's. FJ is a keeper, so $ is not the factor, but the Costco oil is half the price. I do my oil changes at 7500 miles. Do you see a definite way I should lean on the oil choice?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,104 Posts
Was just reading this thread and appreciated the insight. My 2014 is just out of warranty, so I'm planning to change viscosity to either M1 5w-30 (by the case at Costco) or Amsoil 0W-30 (w online membership). I run Amsoil in the FJ diffs. I live in Eastern WA where winter temps get to below freezing and summers are 90's. FJ is a keeper, so $ is not the factor, but the Costco oil is half the price. I do my oil changes at 7500 miles. Do you see a definite way I should lean on the oil choice?
M1 10W-30 from Costco, on sale periodically for ~$29/case.

I've also got a '14, have been running oil analyses regularly, including TBN. In all cases, regardless of driving conditions, the 10W-30 M1 still had lots of life left at 6500 miles, and Blackstone suggested extending the OCI to 8K miles.

I've run M1 10W-30 in my '00 4Runner 4WD since new, it's now got just under 250K miles and runs flawlessly, zero oil burned between changes and nearly the same fuel economy numbers as it had when fully broken in at 10K miles.

I'm in So Cal, so "winters" are pretty mild, but both the FJ and the 4R have been in sub-freezing conditions and always started effortlessly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Best engine oil I seen out there are Penzoil Ultra Platinum and AmsOil
Check YouTube for their testing. And if you looking for filter get Frame XG3600

I researched hours for best oil in market and that was the conclusion. Cheers hope that helped


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
21 - 35 of 35 Posts
Top