Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum banner

41 - 60 of 87 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
I have talked about this severAl times towed an H2 for a few years but need to downsize that thing. So a couple of weeks ago bought 13 fj automatic read the manual before we bought it only 20 000 on it the manual says it can be towed 4 down in an emergency . We tested by puting the car in neutral transfer case in nutral turn off the engine you can pus the car with two fingers on flat surface. Decided to install battery cut off so it will not register miles etc . Got the blue ox on and give it a go I just will not mention to the car it's not an emergency thanks will let you know how it goes
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,401 Posts
Discussion Starter #43
I have talked about this severAl times towed an H2 for a few years but need to downsize that thing. So a couple of weeks ago bought 13 fj automatic read the manual before we bought it only 20 000 on it the manual says it can be towed 4 down in an emergency . We tested by puting the car in neutral transfer case in nutral turn off the engine you can pus the car with two fingers on flat surface. Decided to install battery cut off so it will not register miles etc . Got the blue ox on and give it a go I just will not mention to the car it's not an emergency thanks will let you know how it goes
ARe you putting both trans and tcase in N??? if so, I highly recommend you measure the temp of your trans in mileage intervals 1mi,5mi,10mi,20 and so on.
On my 6MT, I leave trans in 4 and tcase in N...if it were my auto, I would leave it either D or leave in P with a park pal override... and put tcase in N

Let the forum know what worked for you. If you can note your temperature measurements or even post a video as I did.
Good Luck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
SwiCago,

I'm moving from our 19' Airstream behind our '07/6M FJ to a 40x Fleetwood Discovery and wanted to verify that you're flat towing your 6M FJ with TCase in 'Neutral'. I've read by another poster that N locks the front hubs and he did it in 'Highway'

It would be great if I could run a couple questions by you as someone who has done this successfully.

Michael
[email protected]
850.356.9883
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,401 Posts
Discussion Starter #45 (Edited)
I Flat tow the 6MT with Tcase in N and Transmission in 4th!
The other poster most likely has an AT. On the AT people install a drive line disconnect, which disconnects the rear driveline from the tcase. And when the tcase is in H, then the front is disconnected as well as the AT can run in 2wd....where as our 6MTs are either 4WD or AWD depending on the tcase setting.
If you put the 6MT in H, then the trans will be enganged and rotate. If you put the trans in N, it will rotate freely, however will get super hot as it does not pump the oil to cool it. This will most certainly eventually burn up the trans. I have tested this too ;) But only for a short distance.
Yes, when the tcase on the 6MT is in N, the center diff is locked...however while towing behind the motorhome, you'll never ever be able to make such a tight turn that will cause any significant binding of the center diff. I have a 2011 freightliner and for a motorhome it has an insane turning radius, but again never tight enough to cause any binding. In fact the front wheels barely even turn. In my video you see me making a tight turn in a gas station, that is about as tight as you'll get.
Anyhow, I'll shoot you an email where you can ask more questions.

BTW...nice motorhome you chose.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
I Flat tow the 6MT with Tcase in N and Transmission in 4th!
Yes, when the tcase on the 6MT is in N, the center diff is locked...however while towing behind the motorhome, you'll never ever be able to make such a tight turn that will cause any significant binding of the center diff.
You, know - there is nothing like experience when it comes to doing something new and untried. Thank you so much for taking the time to shoot me some information.

What you wrote makes perfect sense; the tranny needs to be in 4 to keep the cluster turning, rather than only the output shaft.

SUMMARY:

1. TCase in N: (Reason - to disconnect the 6M Transmission from the engine) Yes?
2. Transmission in 4th: (Reason - to provide spash lubrication to the output shaft by rotating the gear cluster along with the output shaft) Yes?

BUT still a bit confused ~ won't the engine want to rotate with the tranny in 4th? Something I'm missing here, apparently the TCase in N discos the tranny from the engine. I don't know exactly how the TCase interconnects with the Engine and Tranny.:thinkerg:

Thanks again, I should send you come cookies.

Yea ~ we love the layout of the Discovery. We haven't picked it up yet, but I'm busy readying the FJ with the SMI Air Force One Aux Brake and Roadmaster Sterling Aluminum All Terrain. The TB will be connected directly to the shackle mounts on the Exp One bumper; should work well. I like how the AF1 is a direct connect to the air brakes. Sweet system.

Michael
:blueblob: I'm so happy! I love my FJ!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,498 Posts
Another generous member sharing real world experience and knowledge. Hats off to you SwiCago. I wonder if bungee chording the shift lever into 4th gear would give you piece of mind?? Nice write up. :rocker:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
103 Posts
Hopefully, this will answer the MT 4th Gear Question. Looking at the Synchronizers and Gearing the reason for placing the transmission in 4th or any gear for that matter keeps the output shaft from spinning. Unlike older manual transmissions, many new ones have a synchronizer for reverse which basically means the cluster/counter shaft doesn't rotate unless the Input Shaft is turning. Since the engine is off the input shaft is stationary and so is the cluster/counter shaft so in reality the pocket bearing in-between the Input Shaft and Output Shaft is not receiving splash lubrication. If the Output Shaft was to spin with the transmission in neutral, and the engine is off, the pocket bearing will starve of lubrication. Synchronized Reverse is the key here... This only applies to this design of a MT and not the older ones. Locking the output shaft in 4th keeps the pocket bearing from destroying itself.

I had a repair shop in Idaho that towed a non starting Dodge 1 Ton approximately 5 miles in neutral for a no start condition. They noticed something wrong when they fixed the no start condition and the truck lunged forward in neutral. The owner sublet the transmission to me and I tore the NVG4500 apart and discovered it had a Synchronized Reverse... The input shaft (Inner Race for Pocket Bearings), Pocket Bearings/Rollers, and Output Shaft (Outer Race for Pocket Bearings) were toasted. At the time the Input Shaft my cost was 450.00, Output Shaft 750.00, and Overhaul Kit with Lined Synchros was close to 500.00 It was an expensive lesson for the repair shop owner who had no idea no idea about this design. I felt pretty bad for the shop owner and did the entire job at cost.

Moral of the story - All he had to do was pull the driveline. It was 2WD so with all 4 wheels on the ground that was the only option. 4WD - Neutral, Lock the Transmission in Gear to keep Output Shaft from rotating.

Hope this helps clear up the misnomer cluster shaft rotation. Again this only applies to a 100% Synchronized transmission which includes the Reverse Gear.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,401 Posts
Discussion Starter #49
1. TCase in N: (Reason - to disconnect the 6M Transmission from the engine) Yes?
False! Tcase in N, disconnects Tcase from Trans (but locks center diff)

2. Transmission in 4th: (Reason - to provide spash lubrication to the output shaft by rotating the gear cluster along with the output shaft) Yes?
False. Trans in 4th just keeps trans from getting any kind of perpetual rotation form moving liquids from tcase. Trans is being kept from moving, because it is in gear(connected to motor). You don't want the trans to rotate! I chose 4th, because if for some odd ball reason the Tcase did go into gear. Then the motor would be rotating with, but not cause redline condition for the time it takes for me to realize extra drag(never had tcase pop back into gear, never had trans pop out of gear)!

BUT still a bit confused ~ won't the engine want to rotate with the tranny in 4th? Something I'm missing here, apparently the TCase in N discos the tranny from the engine. I don't know exactly how the TCase interconnects with the Engine and Tranny.:thinkerg:
See above comment. Tcase disconnects trans. Trans still connected to motor.

Thanks again, I should send you come cookies.
Did you say cookies... :rocker:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
103 Posts
The transmission needs to be locked in a gear to keep it from rotating.... there is no splash lubrication with a 100% synchronized transmission. Transfer Case in Neutral disconnects the transmission; however, as SwiCago mentioned about perpetual motion causing the transmission output shaft to spin is true. This is not a good thing unless you would like transmission rebuilders like me to have more business....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
103 Posts
The transmission needs to be locked in a gear to keep it from rotating.... there is no splash lubrication with a 100% synchronized transmission. Transfer Case in Neutral disconnects the transmission; however, as SwiCago mentioned about perpetual motion causing the transmission output shaft to spin is true. This is not a good thing unless you would like transmission rebuilders like me to have more business....
One other thing.... the output shaft in 100% synchronized systems does NOT provide splash lubrication... the input shaft connected to the clutch disc rotates cluster/counter shaft when the engine is running with transmission in neutral.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
What I needed to see in order to understand (thank you AL) was that the torque was transferred through the TCase from the Tranny back to the rear wheels. This is critical to understanding the TCase in Neutral setting: With the TCase in Neutral, the rotational energy from the rear wheels moves up through to the driveshaft. This was what I was missing.

All it would take was for me to crawl under the FJ to see this, but I was focused on the history, information gathering part of the research. So, again, thank you so much AL, for taking the time to edify me on how the TCase works. I've rebuilt manuals, done clutches, and all the other stuff - but have zero experience with 4wheel drive units. I love to learn!

While Flat Towing:

1. With the TCase in N ~ the rotation from the rear driveshaft stops at the TCase.
2. With the Tranny in 4th ~ the tranny is coupled to the stationary crankshaft and not rotating.
3. All Wheels are rotating
4. Both Diffs are rotating
5. Both Driveshafts are rotating
6. Transmission and Engine are not rotating

I'll let the forum know when I start-off and progress along the way. This is critical information to get out to our partner FJ pilots that the FJ Can Be Flat Towed.

I'll be a believer when I do it myself. Right now, it makes sense that it can be done sufficiently to do it. Cautiously just in case for whatever reason the FJ's are not all the same.

Michael
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,766 Posts
I don't know why I never came across this thread before.

Thanks for the info - really useful!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,401 Posts
Discussion Starter #56
What I needed to see in order to understand (thank you AL) was that the torque was transferred through the TCase from the Tranny back to the rear wheels. This is critical to understanding the TCase in Neutral setting: With the TCase in Neutral, the rotational energy from the rear wheels moves up through to the driveshaft. This was what I was missing.

All it would take was for me to crawl under the FJ to see this, but I was focused on the history, information gathering part of the research. So, again, thank you so much AL, for taking the time to edify me on how the TCase works. I've rebuilt manuals, done clutches, and all the other stuff - but have zero experience with 4wheel drive units. I love to learn!

While Flat Towing:

1. With the TCase in N ~ the rotation from the rear driveshaft stops at the TCase.
2. With the Tranny in 4th ~ the tranny is coupled to the stationary crankshaft and not rotating.
3. All Wheels are rotating
4. Both Diffs are rotating
5. Both Driveshafts are rotating
6. Transmission and Engine are not rotating

I'll let the forum know when I start-off and progress along the way. This is critical information to get out to our partner FJ pilots that the FJ Can Be Flat Towed.

I'll be a believer when I do it myself. Right now, it makes sense that it can be done sufficiently to do it. Cautiously just in case for whatever reason the FJ's are not all the same.

Michael
Glad I was able to help you better understand the mechanical aspect of the 4wd system.I would have been worried about you, if you had still not gotten it...especially after the diagram I email you :lol:

Yes, please keep everyone posted. And if you can add comments/pics on the air brake setup. I chose non-air, because I didn't want to risk air leaks. But I almost went that route, probably easier then what I did.
Let me know if you have any other questions, especially on the electrical side.
:cheers:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Glad I was able to help you better understand the mechanical aspect of the 4wd system.I would have been worried about you, if you had still not gotten it...especially after the diagram I email you :lol:

Yes, please keep everyone posted. And if you can add comments/pics on the air brake setup. I chose non-air, because I didn't want to risk air leaks. But I almost went that route, probably easier then what I did.
Let me know if you have any other questions, especially on the electrical side.
:cheers:
I went with the air brake system because it is a directly proportional system and doesn't rely on a secondary sensor determining how much braking force to apply in the FJ. I've built and repaired heavy truck air systems and they are very reliable. If the work is done clean and correctly, there shouldn't be an issue. I got the SMI Air Force One kit tonight and I'm real impressed with the quality of the parts, fittings, and fit-and-finish overall. They provide a DVD, paper manual, PDF, and added a youtube video to help with the installation. So, it shouldn't be a bugger.

I'll take some pics of the install to help anyone who may be deciding to go the air way or electronic way. I didn't like the air way until I did some reasearch on the SMI approach. There's a DOT requirement to have a suplimentary air tank in the add-on system in case the system fails to not also take-out the main coach brakes.

Dick Mason, Prescott, AZ 4/16/10 posted an excellent write-up on Foretravel Projects

Full credit to Mr. Mason, excellent work! Check-out his write-up on the towing and braking system.

Michael
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Update on prepping the FJ for flat towing.

Warrior Adaptors: After a bit of comparison shopping, I found the Warrior Products 867 Tow Bar D-Ring Adapter - Large 7/8 Pin / 3/4 D Ring fit the Expedition One front bumper Shackle mounts. The Ex1 front recovery mounts have a 1" hole, so the 7/8" pin that comes with the Warrior 867 fits with just enough clearance. The Sterling Tow Bar side was another story. The 867's are very well-made, thick steel, clean MIG welds all around, and a quality satin black powder coat. Impressive for just a bracket. I called Warrior and verified the dimensions of their brackets because none of the sellers included these important measurements. Nice folks at Warrior; very helpful. The rep even went to measure the depth of the hole herself for me. Warrior is a manufacturer/wholesaler so I bought them on Amazon – best price.

Expedition One bumper: I called the Ex1 folks and talked to them about the integrity of using their bumper for towing behind our coach and was comforted that a couple of the employees did use theirs for towing safely. Just make sure the connections were secured! The Roadmaster Adapter brackets couldn’t be used anyway because the Ex1 mounts occupy the FJ frame location. Besides, at ~ $500, I was looking for some way to reduce the overall project cost. When I installed my bumper, I noticed how robust the frame mounts were. Curiously, the Ex1 bumper-to-frame mounts look exactly like the brackets in the Roadmaster FJ adapter set-up. So, I called Ex1 and asked the tech rep if they fab'ed 100% of their bumpers or sub'ed parts. She said they did sub-out the frame mounts. So, it's likely that the same fabrication shop makes the Roadmaster and the Ex1 FJ frame mounts. Another piece of mind feature. As far as the overall strength of the Ex1 bumper, no worries there; design, materials, and fabrication top-shelf; why I bought it.

The Roadmaster Sterling Tow Bar brackets have a ¾” hole and the Warrior a ½ " hole. Options: 1. Replace with the Warriors (lack of support due to the excessive gap between the adapter arms and the Sterling actuator end) 2. Drill the hefty Warrior bracket from ½” to ¾”. 3. Use bushings.

Elliot's Hardware in Dallas had bronze bushings.

The Quick Disconnect feature of the Sterling was retained but had to be locked to prevent accidental or intentional clevis pin removal. Two Master padlocks will do the trick.

7/8 x 4 1/2 Grade 8 bolts ($$) and lock nuts will secure the Warriors to the Ex1 bumper. The angle of the Ex1 bumper front plate is < 90, so I'll need to dress the outer edge of the Warrior brackets for clearance.

Will post pics when the mounting is complete.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,401 Posts
Discussion Starter #59
Looks like you are getting it together.
BTW: I used the factory tow recovery points for my safety cables. I didn't want my safety cables attached to the same spot my bumper was attached too (never know if the bumper falls off ;) )
Also, I replaced the pin included in the warrior adapter kit with a longer pin with handle, meant for snow plows. Made it easier to remove and I also added a second pin hole, as a back up in case a pin popped out (two is better than one)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Greetings from another New-B wanting to tow FJC AMT 4 down. So like some of the other posters have asked has anyone done that yet and if so how?
I'm thinking of Tow Dolly with surge brakes and disconnect rear drive shaft and no other expensive equipment required.:clap:
 
41 - 60 of 87 Posts
Top