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Discussion Starter #1
Curious if anyone is running any friction modifiers in their diffs, transfer or engine?

Our millwrights/mechanics here at work have been running a FM in our equipment for the last year or so and they keep telling me it is making difference in the performance of the machines (cold starts, smoother running gear boxes,) at a fluid change intervals the oil is looking a lot better than prior.

This is what they are using:

https://www.archoil.com/products/ar9100-oil-additive


I have access to the product (free to me), tempted to give it whirl but as always looking for experiences, thought and yes....opinions.
 

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Curious if anyone is running any friction modifiers in their diffs, transfer or engine?

Our millwrights/mechanics here at work have been running a FM in our equipment for the last year or so and they keep telling me it is making difference in the performance of the machines (cold starts, smoother running gear boxes,) at a fluid change intervals the oil is looking a lot better than prior.

This is what they are using:

https://www.archoil.com/products/ar9100-oil-additive


I have access to the product (free to me), tempted to give it whirl but as always looking for experiences, thought and yes....opinions.
Simple question:
Can your millwrights provide ANY quantitative data of ANY kind to support their “perception” that this magic fluid improves ANY aspect of machine operation?

Multiple oil analyses across multiple engines showing change in PPM of wear metals or contaminants, before and after the snake oil was added?

Meticulous recording of fuel consumption over many hours of constant load operation, across multiple engines?

Reduction of average and peak coolant temperatures over multiple engines at various load levels?

Reduction in gearbox lubricant temperatures under constant load conditions?

Save your $$, don’t contaminate your lubricants with ANY additive with supposedly magical properties.

Change your oil at intervals of 5k to 7k miles, based on oil analyses of YOUR vehicle driven under YOUR operating conditions, using high quality oil with performance and reliability PROVEN over decades and millions of vehicle miles (Mobil 1, etc.).

It might be enlightening to take a look (via Google Earth) at Achoil's "corporate headquarters" in Oxford, CT.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Simple question:
Can your millwrights provide ANY quantitive data of ANY kind to support their “perception” that this snake oil improves ANY aspect of machine operation?

Multiple oil analyses across multiple engines showing change in PPM of wear metals or contaminants, before and after the snake oil was added?

Meticulous recording of fuel consumption over many hours of constant load operation, across multiple engines?

Reduction of average and peak coolant temperatures over multiple engines at various load levels?

Reduction in gearbox lubricant temperatures under constant load conditions?

Save your $$, don’t contaminate your lubricants with ANY additive with supposedly magical properties.

Change your oil at intervals of 5k to 7k miles, based on oil analyses of YOUR vehicle driven under YOUR operating conditions, using high quality oil with performance and reliability PROVEN over decades and millions of vehicle miles (Mobil 1, etc.).

It might be enlightening to take a look (via Google Earth) at Achoil's "corporate headquarters" in Oxford, CT.
Aside from the fact the mechanic's and millwrights are from eastern Europe who are more in love and in tune with their machines than their wives we have 3rd pty testing/analysis as part of our PM process for these machines. The 3rd pty has seen an improvement in the numbers and have made comments about this in their reports

Now when I say machines I'm referring to CNC turning centers, 4&5&6 axis mills, manual lathes - 14", 18" & 24" hollow spindles, radial and surface grinders. The 14" just went through $60K rebuild on the gearbox and right off the bat in went the FM.
Our guys are also considering adding it to the our ABB robots as well.

I'm not looking to extend my service intervals (I change it 3K miles thank you) BUT if it can help with additional lubricity and protection....I'm willing to try.

Not sure what Google Maps has to do with anything - their office space looks the same as the last company I worked for and that was a $200M/yr business.

On the flip side - do you have any hard data to show that FM or other treatments DO NOT work as advertised?
 

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Aside from the fact the mechanic's and millwrights are from eastern Europe who are more in love and in tune with their machines than their wives we have 3rd pty testing/analysis as part of our PM process for these machines. The 3rd pty has seen an improvement in the numbers and have made comments about this in their reports. (snip)
What sort of "testing analysis" are you referring to? Oil analysis?

If so, please share comparable "before and after" analysis reports for the same machine with the same number of operating hours, etc. so the only difference in the operating conditions was the addition of the magic fluid. No problem with obscuring company name, etc.

I'would be especially interested in the test data that were so remarkable that they elicited special commentary from the test lab.
 

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On the flip side - do you have any hard data to show that FM or other treatments DO NOT work as advertised?
I think the problem here is that you're adding an unknown to the equation. Oil/Grease manufacturers guarantee their product will perform the job intended as delivered not diluted. Who knows if these additives are fully compatible when combined and could create an unintended side effect. Their non-existent warranty isn't really confidence inspiring, they only site a federal act as your only protection. Are you prepared to fight these guys in court if your machine blows up?

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act allows consumers to use additives of their choice without their warranty being voided, except for in circumstances where specific additives have been noted as incompatible.

You also need to take into account gaskets, and seals that could be comprised of incompatible materials as well. I used the term snake oil pretty loosely, I don't doubt that this stuff has some effect. I just don't think it's worth risking on expensive equipment, or other that has been designed/proven to work fine with normal products already.
 

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My question about this sort of thing (without any actual knowledge of this particular product) is that if it is so great I am sure the automotive manufacturers would be using and recommending it for their vehicles. But they are not.
 

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Mikey, I wonder if the equipment where you work uses a multi-viscosity grade oil in the gear boxes, engines, bearing assemblies, etc. Many times the design of large equipment has nooks and crannies that when draining and replacing oil captures and holds residue oil that becomes sludgy over time. Replacement oil may dislodge small globs of sludge that result in viscosity abnormalities contributing to cold start issues and inefficiencies. Rarely do you find large equipment running synthetic oils (just too expensive). The oil refinery where I worked in Kansas (retired 5 years ago) used Royal Purple to combat viscosity and wear problems in large equipment. Also, note that large equipment running continuously for long periods, and sometimes at varying loads. Most times equipment runs until it is convenient or maintenance required to shutdown and service. Only critical equipment have hour meters on the operation.

Pertaining to the FJ, I used synthetics in the differentials and transfer case, Toyota magic potion in the automatic transmission (about to change out for the second time), but good quality dino oil (not synthetic) in the engine. I change the engine oil and filter every 3-5,000 miles. Also, I live in Arizona now (4 years since moving from Kansas) so cold temperature are not experienced.

Your mechanics from eastern Europe didn't have access to high quality lubricants (or ability to override upper management decision to purchase lubricants) during their tenure in the old world. I'm not suggesting that you try to change your mechanics' preferences for large machinery, but I'm not sure it applies to vehicles manufactured after 2000. Especially, when we service our vehicles at specific mileage intervals. Finally, passenger cars and light trucks don't typically see as severe service as large equipment experiences.

There are several additives for sale that claim to improve wear and life of engines, transmissions, and differentials, as well as gasoline additives claim fuel efficiencies. These products would not sell at all unless they claimed improvement. So, the final question is how much benefit (if any can be accurately quantified) versus cost is justified by the consumer.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
My question about this sort of thing (without any actual knowledge of this particular product) is that if it is so great I am sure the automotive manufacturers would be using and recommending it for their vehicles. But they are not.
Why would any manufacture recommend a product that could prolong the life of their products - that would be taking money out of their pockets when it comes time for repairs, service calls etc? Imagine how much more expensive something would be to offset that loss?

Right now I am neither for or against any FM or additives I just like to explore all point of view.
 

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What sort of "testing analysis" are you referring to? Oil analysis?

If so, please share comparable "before and after" analysis reports for the same machine with the same number of operating hours, etc. so the only difference in the operating conditions was the addition of the magic fluid. No problem with obscuring company name, etc.

I'would be especially interested in the test data that were so remarkable that they elicited special commentary from the test lab.
We have regular testing done on the lubricants, cutting fluids, honing oils etc.

I can appreciate that you are hard data and numbers individual but I can not share internal documents even if they are edited....I like my job.
 

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Why would any manufacture recommend a product that could prolong the life of their products - that would be taking money out of their pockets when it comes time for repairs, service calls etc? Imagine how much more expensive something would be to offset that loss?
Competitive advantage if nothing else... vehicle reliability has been steadily improving over the years, this would be no different.

What many people blame on planned obsolescence is usually more accurately the end result of a cost/benefit analysis that may not necessarily reflect the needs of an individual while still improving reliability and/or costs on average for all users.

And then there are the times when the engineers are just wrong, and the obsolescence isn't planned.
 

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We have regular testing done on the lubricants, cutting fluids, honing oils etc.

I can appreciate that you are hard data and numbers individual but I can not share internal documents even if they are edited....I like my job.
OK, no need to share the actual docs if they contain information so sensitive that your company would fire you if shared; but it's hard to understand as there is nothing "proprietary" about a used oil analysis, is there?

You could just say something like:

"In a CNC machining center with a 30,000 RPM spindle, after 2,000 hours of operation using Mobil Velocite #6 spindle oil, the initial oil analysis indicated 4,200 PPM of iron."

"After the spindle lubrication system was drained and purged, it was again filled with Velocite #6 , but with 5% Archoil 9100 added. After an additional 2,000 hours of operation the oil analysis indicated an iron content of 1230 PPM, a reduction of 70%."

These are the type of clear, concise, directly comparable before-and-after test reports you are looking at, right?
 

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My question about this sort of thing (without any actual knowledge of this particular product) is that if it is so great I am sure the automotive manufacturers would be using and recommending it for their vehicles. But they are not.
Actually, they do in some circumstances. In GM's literature regarding friction modifiers intended for limited slip differentials, it specifically states that when off the shelf GM branded friction modifier is not available, a substitute of Lube Guard or TransX branded friction modifiers found at local auto parts suppliers will suffice and not void 'any' drivetrain warranties.
 

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What about a product that is more well known - Lucas. Similar claims.

https://lucasoil.com/products/engine-oil-additives/high-mileage-oil-stabilizer

Still snake oil?
Not sure if this was directed towards me or not. Lube Guard and TransX are very well known in the industry, and it is sold on the shelf of your typical auto parts store.

I would never consider chemicals like friction modifiers to be "snake oil", as they actually have an intended purpose such as modifying the co-efficient of friction for clutch plates like in an automatic transmission or limited slip differential. They don't make a "claim" to add friction, they actually work. As far as Lucas Synthetic stabilizer, I don't have any experience with it, but I have on occasion used the non-synthetic Lucas Engine Stabilizer to quiet lifters in an older engine, in which that worked also, but not always. Repairing the defunct oil system component is the only way to actually fix it.

Most of the typical chemicals that make claims to fix problems that are scientifically challenged, I would consider to be potentially "snake oil" type chemicals. The only ones that I'm aware of that actually do some good, or bandage a problem temporarily are the ones that have been around since I've been alive. There are a lot of products that have come and gone from the typical auto parts store shelves over the years. These are probably the ones to stay away from.

Fuel injector cleaner as a fuel tank additives are a good example. There's always a new kid on the block, but most don't stand the test of time. The best way to clean them in the vehicle is with a high pressure treatment to the injector rail itself with a quality detergent, such as those sold by Motorvac, SPX, Snap-On, Etc.
 

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If the data shows an improvement or more life expectancy of the oil might be ok.

The company I work for builds gearboxes and high speed rotating equipment. We install, maintain, and service this equipment.
When the customer buys this equipment they are given a oil spec with many oil makers and brands that meet the spec.

If they use cheap dino they are probably going to be changing it at regular intervals with a chance of varnish and coking.
If they use a high grade synthetic they have a chance to use that oil a long time with good maintenance practices and analysis. 50,000 hrs easily.

At an average of 500 gallons a change that cheap oil becomes expensive.

We recommend no additives.

Do we do that for equipment wear so we can sell more?
No, that is idiotic for high speed equipment and gearboxes. A happy customer is the best advertisement to sell them the next piece of equipment.

We know when our rotating equipment needs replaced and is replaced religiously.

Royal Purple is snake oil for high speed equipment and gearboxes.
Replaced a gearbox that had been running Royal Purple at half it’s life cycle. Heat build up caused coking around the low speed and high speed bearings which caused undue wear and then vibrations.

Good synthetic is my opinion with no additives.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Not sure if this was directed towards me or not.... .
It was not direct at you...to the public in general.

I do appreciate your response and would imagine you have had experience with these given your nature of work.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
If the data shows an improvement or more life expectancy of the oil might be ok.

The company I work for builds gearboxes and high speed rotating equipment. We install, maintain, and service this equipment.
When the customer buys this equipment they are given a oil spec with many oil makers and brands that meet the spec.

If they use cheap dino they are probably going to be changing it at regular intervals with a chance of varnish and coking.
If they use a high grade synthetic they have a chance to use that oil a long time with good maintenance practices and analysis. 50,000 hrs easily.

At an average of 500 gallons a change that cheap oil becomes expensive.

We recommend no additives.

Do we do that for equipment wear so we can sell more?
No, that is idiotic for high speed equipment and gearboxes. A happy customer is the best advertisement to sell them the next piece of equipment.

We know when our rotating equipment needs replaced and is replaced religiously.

Royal Purple is snake oil for high speed equipment and gearboxes.
Replaced a gearbox that had been running Royal Purple at half it’s life cycle. Heat build up caused coking around the low speed and high speed bearings which caused undue wear and then vibrations.

Good synthetic is my opinion with no additives.
Thanks - one of our customers, their sister company is a big gear and gear box manufacture. I'm going to see if I can a hold of the engineer and get their thoughts as well.

Royal Purple - There seem to be 2 very distinct camps.
Those who love it....like really love it
Those who hate everything about it
Is it an OKish synthetic oil with major marketing hype?
 
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