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tufftorq said:
Kzoocruiser said:
I'm somewhat confused...you say you joined a motorcycle club and almost joined a full-size club. It's pretty obvious through your posts that you don't feel that there are enough groups working together for the same goal or the members of these groups frankly don't care about your stance and opinions?

I've sent cash into many more clubs than that all around this country and belive me...."caring about my stance or opinion" has never stopped me from writing those checks to either orv clubs or the youth training programs that we started/supported in our area.

"...Have you contacted TLCA's land use cat Greg Mumm? I understand that he's looking for some help...."

I have contacted Mr. Mumm, who promised to get back to me after an unagreed to time while investigating why the "shared trails" portion of his national group's motto or their group's recent pledge to be more "involved" in issues 'out east' hasn't necessarily apllied to the single largest maintained trail system in this country. I have faith that he will do so; yet the issues Michigan has faced in the the months since we last spoke we're moving darn fast at the time and even more so now. As each day that passes after informing national orv groups of anonymous secret councils, cancelled public meetings for 6 months at a time, behind-closed-doors multi-million dollar funding committees, single use trail lobbying outside the community and a myriad of other nonsense issues far to numerous to list here....one begins to wonder if the average 'peon' orver outside of these spheres of influence are expected to just sit back and watch these guys steam roller the most IMPORTANT of our issues right on through.
To answer your question....every one of these national groups has been informed of this mess for months or even years involving (again) the largest sytem out there.
To date...I have not received one formal or informal denial concerning any of the facts that I have presented over these long seven years....and (IMO) the continued silence from each and every one of these individuals/organizations pretty muchl tells the story that none of want to hear.

I'm sorry, but if anybody can name me one state with a bigger trail system in a more critical period in its history that these national guys solicit our monies to be "right on top of"....please list it here and now.
If you can't...then please tell me why every one of these guys circle the damn wagons when many of their own have not only acted badly....BUT DESTROYED THE OPPORTUNITY FOR MANY TO GET INVOLVED IN THE FUTURE.

Every one of these national groups has their cute little slogan or buzz words for working together and educating others. The problem I've discovered is that the hear, speak and see no evil mantra is one heck of a lot more ingrained in their daily efforts than listening to those questioning what in the heck is actually going on.

The rest of your comments directly relate to the tired, old and frankly insulting mantera that every single one of these guys use when somebody 'dares' ask that the moat be opened around these large and small ;local and national orv non-profits.
Tell me something...is it any wonder why we see very few younger age adults seeking to get involved in orv politics...when every single orv leader that they come into contact with rudely puts them under the lights regarding "'welllll, what have you done" and "well by gosh we did this" before he can even get his question or suggestion out?
 

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Question:

Why is the comparison made between boat docks and bridges built over streams....when the filmaker obviously acknowledges that not a dime is being argued by the off-road community in Alberta as to the importance of the latter?
Does this guy mean to tell me that not a cent of whatever money he pays directly or indirectly to ride in the province of Alberta...has never gone or never will go to building a recreational trail across a darn river?

Whose fault is that and more importantly....what does this say about US as a community vs those arguing that the darn things ought to be in place to begin with?

Loved the movie....just must've missed the part (as here in the U.S) where the off-road community majority was filmed standing around with their wallets out willing to solve all the problems mentioned.
By the way, here's what they pay in Quebec Droits d'accès - Trail Permit - Quad VTT trip for excursions travels and access rights trail conditions Quebec trail maps would it be safe to say that these people have a lot less tree huggers on their arse after developing one of the world's most extensive systems by actually PAYING for it....or does complaining about not a dollar going to bridge building actually ATTRACT greenies to the other side of this country?
My response to the above link!
Les renseignements sur cette page sont la meilleure raison que je ne passerai jamais par les dollars américains au Canada. Les Canadiens sont toujours l'accueil dans les États-Unis. Nous n'avons pas besoin de leur argent, juste leur amitié.
Les Canadiens seraient la vie plus riche à travers la frontière dans le terrain du libre au lieu du terrain des frais.

I love Canada but their socialistic system will self destruct someday. All the USA greenies can move north and clear thinking Canadians can move south.
 

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Just watched the video and I though it was great and made some very good arguments.

My questions to Kzoocruiser is y pay if there is nothing to maintain. These are offroad trails and don't / shouldn't be graded we don't need a outhouse just a bush like all the other creators in the forsets or deserts. I just don't see what needs to be maintained and if there is nothing that needs to be maintained then there is no need to pay. We just need to remember to be good stewarts of what God has given us by packing in packing out. We also do pay right now in taxes witch some of it goes to forest services to patrol forest land so we even have some police out on the trail right now that is payed for. But we should also do are part on the policing and when you see some one making an ass of them self or trashing the place tell them to stop or we will loose what we have. I just don't see what needs to be maintained it is dirt road for crying out loud it is not suppose to be easy.
 

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Just watched the video and I though it was great and made some very good arguments.
"....My questions to Kzoocruiser is y pay if there is nothing to maintain. These are offroad trails and don't / shouldn't be graded we don't need a outhouse just a bush like all the other creators in the forsets or deserts. I just don't see what needs to be maintained and if there is nothing that needs to be maintained then there is no need to pay....."


Every national orv organization out there (and many local ones also) have lived by this false premise for years...mainly to make sure that the 2nd much less bankable dollar out of your wallet (supporting sustainable eco-friendly local maintenance/enforcement programs) doesn't interfere with the 1st dollar we send nationally to support these "ask no true multi-use questions of us" non-profits.
I defy you to find national orv leader one willing to defend your above premise out of one side of their mouth....while claiming that we are all just "good stewards of the environment" out of the other.

We impact the ground we tread on....period.
We need to PAY to sustainably maintain said ground over time and build the same bridges that this guy claims there in not one dollar being spent in Alberta to build...OUT OF OUR MONEY.
I 100% understand the liberal thought process prevalent both in our country and theirs. It has poisoned our youth into believing that a sticker with the BRC; Tread Lightly or NOHVCC emblem on it.....is all that is needed to become good stewards of the limited amount of resources availiable to us every year to tackle our multi-use problems. These (quote/unquote) 'leaders' are NOT stopping these cycle organizations from splitting us in half with their arrogant me-only land grabs and they are NOT standing up to these same people in regards to ferreting our issues away behind closed doors. (or at public meetings where simple requests for "Q and A" periods are rudely ignored).

"....We just need to remember to be good stewarts of what God has given us by packing in packing out....."

Good point and one which should be repeated again and again....yet not something that gets beyond the more urgent issue of actually paying to be there in the first place and paying to pick up behind every single person who doesn't subscribe to that notion! :)
Does anybody believe that with this last generation being effectively shut out of learning about responsible orv issues at even the highest organization levels in our own community (through narcisistic scattered groups with no multi-use focus and majority uninterested fathers/mothers on the ground) that these 'kids' will somehow act in a manner requiring more money out of each and every one of us in the future....or less?

"....We also do pay right now in taxes witch some of it goes to forest services to patrol forest land so we even have some police out on the trail right now that is payed for....."

Again, show me one future sustainable non-orv funded budget that will make a dent in the issue above or any other orv issue out there going forward. WE MUST PAY OUR OWN WAY, FOLKS and expecting "taxes" to fund anything but even the administration of these programs (still not the ideal) is just another avenue for resentment that the non-riding public will travel.

"...But we should also do are part on the policing and when you see some one making an ass of them self or trashing the place tell them to stop or we will loose what we have. I just don't see what needs to be maintained it is dirt road for crying out loud it is not suppose to be easy......"

Policing our own is great...it's just not being done in any kind of numbers whatsoever and you can confirm this by counting the number of clubs who brag about partnering with law enforcement or sponsoring impoundment laws/even larger fines as a condition of 'hanging with them' in the first place.
The present proper maintenance of many of our trails is the next biggest front that these greenies will make and this guess is no more glaringly evident than here in Michigan where the state can't even find the resources to properly evaluate the damn things in the first place!.
Cyclists and greenie state employees keep the heavily worn trails down to 50"....while the state calls out for both money-saving and do-the-job-right privitized maintenance bids that they know will never come! (how do you expect the private sector to become involved using 21st century equipment; when they're saddled with 50" trails that these cyclists and their national orv organization "buddies" support over the legally allowed 60" at every turn?).

If there are more enthusiasts out there every day speaking frankly about these ridiculously simple "stand up like a man" problems....great.

I just haven't witnessd it to date. :(
 

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The above video is a shining example of just what should be done (unanimously, according to all the folks here http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forums/trail-use-safety-education/37818-political-action-forum-sticky.html ) regarding land-use issues and 'stickies' on the land use/education section of the forums.

Regardless of whether the video can be viewed instantly on the first page by everybody who clicks the link...we should immediately eliminate all discussion surrounding the video's contents...as nobody in the community should have anything constructive to say about the content itself (kind of like a Michael Moore documentary at the Oscars).

Folks need not be 'tempted' to scroll through the topic and view or share their thoughts on the matters at hand; as anything 'negative' surrounding even an Al Gore-like presentation...would indeed spoil the "we just want to feel good about ourselves" (regardless of the hard decisions that this split and varied community must make) vibe that every schoolchild has evidently being spooned up and fed through the past few decades or so.

Therefore, I hereby 'reverse' my position on the "no comment allowed" political action stickies...:)
 

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Video doesn't work.
With the advent of one-way only political action 'stickies' and even the recent award-winning (no content questions allowed) "An Inconvenient Truth"...I'm not sure that the actual message itself much matters anymore.

Simply insert "Save (blank)" as the environmental movement has so emotionally button pushed over the years...and damn any devil in the details.

My suggestion would be to simply 'lock' this topic for no other reason than it was once deemed important enough to be a 'sticky' in the first place. (as further commentary would have only served to 'dilute' the filmmaker's unquestionable intent...which trumps substance every time in the 21st century off-road community).
 

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If somebody has that video downloaded, please upload it to youtube.
 
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