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If I EVER meet Josh im gona kick him for putting me through that!!!! :flame:
 

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There are so many variable involved that it's hard to give a numerical value to the answer. Traction, momentum, and vehicle setup are all variable that needs to be considered. I've seen vehicles past 30 deg. side tilt and they didn't roll but there are also incidences where a vehicle will roll because the outside tires "caught" dirt on a hard turn and flopped. I have no idea what it would take to roll backwards and wouldn't want to test it either!
 

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Watching this video, it seems impossible to roll backward:

Hell's Gate on Vimeo

Still, being new to offroad, how do I know when I'm in danger?

Thanks.
That video illustrates two important points.

1. Follow your spotter's instructions!

2. Don't accellerate if you start tipping. Take your foot off the gas pedal!

The other video of the jeep rolling backward also shows that when the front end came off the ground the driver accellerated...

Not the correct thing to do...

cheers,

dale
 

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Yow! Gives one an idea of what it is really like in the hotseat. I know I would never have the guts to do it. Two thumbs up to anyone who does.
Of course I clicked through a few of the other vids, a few were uncomfortable to watch, a few were amusing.
 

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Ya that really does give you a good drivers-point-of-view. Wow that was tense though... is hells gate really that hard with a stick? Were you toe and heeling the brake and gas pedal;)? I have an old 4 banger stick rig and have taken it places that steep, but less tricky.

good vid! :rocker: maybe edit it it and add some music and it would be super cool
 

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holy hell, that was crazy stuff. Don't know if I'l be trying that one now next time I get to Moab...:)
 

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There are so many variable involved that it's hard to give a numerical value to the answer. Traction, momentum, and vehicle setup are all variable that needs to be considered. I've seen vehicles past 30 deg. side tilt and they didn't roll but there are also incidences where a vehicle will roll because the outside tires "caught" dirt on a hard turn and flopped. I have no idea what it would take to roll backwards and wouldn't want to test it either!
This is the correct answer. Depending on the situation, you can roll at a given number of degrees where you did not roll previously.

The numbers people like to throw out from the mfgs are done on a static platform with the vehicle chained to it (with slack of course). The platform is hydraulicly tilted left to right and forward to back to get the angle numbers.

What does all of this mean? NOTHING in the real world since trails are not flat platforms and having 1 person on the high side in one situation and no passenger on that same side in another will be the difference between rolling or not. Also, keep in mind that all your gear makes a big difference. Mount a bunch of fuel cans or a tool box on the roof....and you have more weight to send you over.

What a new person to wheeling should do is gauge it by feel. If it feels bad to you....don't continue. Back off well in advance of a problem unless you have someone you feel you can trust spotting you.

There's a thread here recently where a guy in a sandstorm needed to be rescued off a sidehill by I believe Sol. That was a good example of someone knowing how far they were comfortable going and stopping before something bad happened. Follow that example.

Sean
 

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That video illustrates two important points.

1. Follow your spotter's instructions!

2. Don't accellerate if you start tipping. Take your foot off the gas pedal!

The other video of the jeep rolling backward also shows that when the front end came off the ground the driver accellerated...

Not the correct thing to do...

cheers,

dale
Small counter point to #2. As you progress in the sport you will eventually see someone do the exact opposite of #2 and it will save them from rolling.

Not accelerating is not always the proper course of action.....in many wheeling instances I've witnessed or been in, the ONLY correct course of action to save a roll is actually to GET ON IT! If you must do this though, be sure you are in the proper gear (If you have a manual) so that when the time comes you can stand on it and get the best application of power.
The other key is if you are heading in the forward direction and start to roll, you want to not only stand on it in certain circumstances, but also (VERY IMPORTANT).....TURN DOWN HILL.

It's counter-intuative to hit the gas when things start going wrong but on steep descents especially, where the back lifts up off the ground and will come over the front, it is far better to gas it and risk a VERY rough/hard landing that breaks major components or really slams the occupants around vs. rolling onto the roof.

Another thing to remember is: sometimes you want to grab reverse and power backward or push in the clutch to roll off something before your front end climbs into the air and you endo backwards.

Couple of examples....in this thread: The Jeep that rolls on Hell's Gate....she would have been better off if she'd stopped well in advance of where she lifted her tires (obviously). But once they were lifted, grabbing reverse and powering back would have saved her (as long as she didn't see-saw the steering wheels while going down). If it was a manual....clutching would have likely saved it as well. I'm not saying she should've backed all the way down the obstacle....just enough to regain control.

Which brings up another good point: The brakes are NOT your friend in most rollover situations. If you've gotten to the point you are going to roll, you've missed your chance to use the brakes effectively to stop the roll. Hard breaking is actually the cause of a lot of rollovers. Say you're dropping off a steep ledge and the rear tires come off the ground.....if you hit the brakes hard, the only ones that will be stopping the vehicle will be the ones on the ground in front...and the mass and momentum of your vehicle will cause the rear end to go even higher for a short amount of time....if you reach the point of no return with this extra height, you will go over without agressive correction by using the throttle and if you stab the throttle after 90º,you are going over anyway and are only accelerating in to the ground so it'll hurt more.


The video of the red Grand Cherokee....same thing....if he'd grabbed reverse (or more appropriately just used the proper amount of accelerator to begin with) he'd have been fine. A clutch would be even easier b/c as soon as the tires really started lifting, a quick clutch would have rolled him back down to the base of the hill. As wiw5 said, just getting off the accelerator would have likely saved this guy's bacon as well....so he does have the right advice, it's just not always a hard and fast rule.

HTH,
Sean
 

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Ya that really does give you a good drivers-point-of-view. Wow that was tense though... is hells gate really that hard with a stick? Were you toe and heeling the brake and gas pedal;)? I have an old 4 banger stick rig and have taken it places that steep, but less tricky.

good vid! :rocker: maybe edit it it and add some music and it would be super cool

I ran it in a stick in my old Toyota 4 banger for years. It's not that bad as long as you have a decent crawl ratio.

I let my sister who had never 4wheeled before drive it up by herself the year she went to Moab.

It's daunting to look at, but Hell's Gate isn't really that tough at all.

Sean
 

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Small counter point to #2. As you progress in the sport you will eventually see someone do the exact opposite of #2 and it will save them from rolling.

Not accelerating is not always the proper course of action.....in many wheeling instances I've witnessed or been in, the ONLY correct course of action to save a roll is actually to GET ON IT! If you must do this though, be sure you are in the proper gear (If you have a manual) so that when the time comes you can stand on it and get the best application of power.
The other key is if you are heading in the forward direction and start to roll, you want to not only stand on it in certain circumstances, but also (VERY IMPORTANT).....TURN DOWN HILL.

It's counter-intuative to hit the gas when things start going wrong but on steep descents especially, where the back lifts up off the ground and will come over the front, it is far better to gas it and risk a VERY rough/hard landing that breaks major components or really slams the occupants around vs. rolling onto the roof.

Another thing to remember is: sometimes you want to grab reverse and power backward or push in the clutch to roll off something before your front end climbs into the air and you endo backwards.

Couple of examples....in this thread: The Jeep that rolls on Hell's Gate....she would have been better off if she'd stopped well in advance of where she lifted her tires (obviously). But once they were lifted, grabbing reverse and powering back would have saved her (as long as she didn't see-saw the steering wheels while going down). If it was a manual....clutching would have likely saved it as well. I'm not saying she should've backed all the way down the obstacle....just enough to regain control.

Which brings up another good point: The brakes are NOT your friend in most rollover situations. If you've gotten to the point you are going to roll, you've missed your chance to use the brakes effectively to stop the roll. Hard breaking is actually the cause of a lot of rollovers. Say you're dropping off a steep ledge and the rear tires come off the ground.....if you hit the brakes hard, the only ones that will be stopping the vehicle will be the ones on the ground in front...and the mass and momentum of your vehicle will cause the rear end to go even higher for a short amount of time....if you reach the point of no return with this extra height, you will go over without agressive correction by using the throttle and if you stab the throttle after 90º,you are going over anyway and are only accelerating in to the ground so it'll hurt more.


The video of the red Grand Cherokee....same thing....if he'd grabbed reverse (or more appropriately just used the proper amount of accelerator to begin with) he'd have been fine. A clutch would be even easier b/c as soon as the tires really started lifting, a quick clutch would have rolled him back down to the base of the hill. As wiw5 said, just getting off the accelerator would have likely saved this guy's bacon as well....so he does have the right advice, it's just not always a hard and fast rule.

HTH,
Sean
Excellent insight on COG and momentum.

These are extreme examples using the skinny peddle and fun to watch.

Where acceleration didn't work at the end.
YouTube - Insane Hill Climb ~ Must see

And one where a touch of gas saved his a$$.
YouTube - Truck rolls on a hill climb & saves it!
 
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