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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This shop is up the street from me and is going to start doing installations in about 45 days.

Hydrogen seems to be the most promising fuel of the future. It has the highest energy to weight ratio and its byproduct is distilled water. Hydrogen is non-toxic, renewable and cheap, and it only produces tiny amounts pollution when burned. The best part is that about 1600 quarts of Hydrogen and oxygen can be extracted from just one quart of water.
Oxy-Hydrogen is a mixture of oxygen and hydrogen that is produced after hydrogen is extracted from distilled water through electrolysis, and this oxy-hydrogen can be funneled into an engine and burned effectively. Unlike pure hydrogen, supplemental oxy-hydrogen can be added to any car without having to make any modifications to the engine, fuel injectors or anything else.
The benefits of using supplemental oxy-hydrogen greatly outweigh the price of these systems. Oxy-Hydrogen burns easily, fast and more powerfully than typical gasoline or diesel and the oxygen increases the octane value of the existing fuel. This means that by using supplemental oxy-hydrogen, you can experience higher horsepower, higher gas mileage and lower toxic emissions. Not only that, but the hydrogen will actually help to clean carbon build-up in your engine, allowing your car to run smoother and more efficiently.
An Oxy-Hydrogen add-on works by using the vehicles alternator to send an electric charge through a liquid electrolyte comprised of water and Lye which causes the hydrogen molecules to separate from the oxygen molecules in the water. It then captures the hydrogen and channels it into the engine via the air intake system.

Hydrogen System Keeps Cars On Road - San Antonio News Story - KSAT San Antonio
Scroll down to watch video.
 

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hydrogen costs $$$$$ and it takes a whole lot of energy to develop/harvest through that electrolysis process mentioned earlier...

you're better off converting your FJ to steam power with a boiler and fueling it with burning dollar bills

I can't argue that the actual hydrogen isn't clean burning, though. but, the world could not survive on hydrogen alone. it doesn't produce enough energy to make up for the energy it takes to produce.
 

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hydrogen costs $$$$$ and it takes a whole lot of energy to develop/harvest through that electrolysis process mentioned earlier...

you're better off converting your FJ to steam power with a boiler and fueling it with burning dollar bills

I can't argue that the actual hydrogen isn't clean burning, though. but, the world could not survive on hydrogen alone. it doesn't produce enough energy to make up for the energy it takes to produce.
This is dead on and why the hydrogen fuel cell issue is often promoted disingenuously: yeah, burning the H2 is clean, but you burned stuff that's dirty to make the H2 in the first place (either coal or oil or gas or something). Turns out that if you only look at half on any cycle, you can get whatever result you want. My favourite was the human battery in the Matrix movie :rofl:
 

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I am waiting for them the finish the algae studies. Will I be able to grow my own fuel? (Just kidding)

I like the idea of SVO in a diesel (unfortunately not in an FJ though) in the mean time.
 

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This is dead on and why the hydrogen fuel cell issue is often promoted disingenuously: yeah, burning the H2 is clean, but you burned stuff that's dirty to make the H2 in the first place (either coal or oil or gas or something). Turns out that if you only look at half on any cycle, you can get whatever result you want. My favourite was the human battery in the Matrix movie :rofl:
I can't take full claim to my remark about the boiler burning dollar bills, I got it from one of the PhD's at the Naval Postgraduate School who taught a course on Power and Propulsion. I damn near laughed my ass off, but it's true.
 

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This is dead on and why the hydrogen fuel cell issue is often promoted disingenuously: yeah, burning the H2 is clean, but you burned stuff that's dirty to make the H2 in the first place (either coal or oil or gas or something). Turns out that if you only look at half on any cycle, you can get whatever result you want. My favourite was the human battery in the Matrix movie :rofl:
The way hydrogen IS produces is horrible, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. It can be produced by solar-powered electrolysis. As mentioned, there is work on algae going on. Right now, the cheapest way for a gas supplier to produce hydrogen is miserable. In itself, separating hydrogen from oxygen is not a dirty process, though it does consume energy.

The problem with fuel cells has nothing to do with hydrogen is produced. It has to do with how hydrogen is stored. Sure, it has great energy per unit volume and in a fuel cell system it is not limited by the Carnot cycle (as it's not a heat engine), but instead the Gibbs free energy. The problem is energy per volume is pathetic. It can be compressed, but not safely to the levels necessary to get a range between fill-ups consumers expect from their vehicles for the most part.

There are other ways to store it, but each one introduces new problems. Obviously, taking it out of water isn't a viable option. When your fuel and exhaust are the same, you haven't done anything.

The product in question, however, is not claiming to run on hydrogen. It is basically using hydrogen as a catalyst. You could say it's being used to increase the efficiency of the real fuel - gas. That's possible. Cars generally get around 15-20% efficiency off the lower heating value of gasoline. There's a lot of room for improvement in that process.

The device in question probably does nothing measurable, but the theory does not violate any laws of thermodynamics.
 

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brav012 said:
.... This means that by using supplemental oxy-hydrogen, you can experience higher horsepower, lower gas mileage and lower toxic emissions.
LOWER gas mileage? No thanks.
 

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you know what is weird thinking about...Our FJ's will probably be the last gas powered vehicle we ever own (unless you are A. one of those people who buy a new car every couple months, or B. can afford gas at 5-6 bucks per gallon)...kinda sucks, I like gas and combustion, its as american as applie pie and cheerleaders...

As far as hydrogen combustion is concerned, I agree its retarded...it takes just as much, actually probably more energy to seperate the Hydrogen out, then it produces in your engine...remember from high school physics, energy is constant, you can't get something for nothing...

Unfortunately I think we are all headed toward electric cars, which is going to kill offroading...UNLESS one of the aforementioned methods (algea, solar produced hydrogen) works out...

Also I don't understand why alcohol isn't pushed more, brazil is independent on it...don't flame me for bein retarded, I'm not totaly up on my reading on all this, and i'm sure theres an obvious reason...


I know one thing, If I was done with grad school and had a job, i'd be putting all my money in green companies in china that are busy brainstorming on this issue as we speak...who ever comes up with the most efficient solution that still maintains the power we are used to from combustion is going to be rich...not to mention other green technologies are really taking off in china...they poluted their country so fast and grew so fast that there has been a rebound affect and in a matter of 5 years they became one of the biggest advocates of green technology...for example we were the leader in solar panels as of a few years ago, but now china has like 40% of the market...anyway now i'm getting off on tangents and politics...
 

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Anybody try converting to propane? I remember several years ago seeing conversion kits to switch back and forth between gas and propane. I don't know what the cost comparison is between the two or what the mpg difference is....but if gas lines ever start up again like in the 70's it may be an option.
 

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So a little gadget can magically produce ungodly amounts of H2 and O2 from water? As an engineer, I sure wish the folks who claim this were willing to *prove* it with a carefully controlled engine dyno test

Hydrogen has a lot of use in petrochemicals, and is fairly expensive to produce onsite. Sounds like this magic gadget could solve all our problems

I would like to clear up some misconceptions about energy density regarding hydrogen and gasoline. The reason why gasoline is such a great fuel is that it's fairly convenient, isn't such a tiny molecule it drifts out through the walls of the tank, and has a fair energy density

Hydrogen: A higher energy density per *mass* than gasoline, but a MUCH lower energy density per *volume* than gasoline. Energy density of 143 MJ/kg for liquid H2, 10 MJ/l. Most of the highly compressed H2 has a energy density of around 5 MJ/l

Gasoline: Energy density of around 47 MJ/kg, or around 35 MJ/l. You will note that a litre of gasoline has approximately 7 times the energy density as a litre of compressed H2.

Let's not even discuss liquid H2. If you understand the energy "cost" of turning H2 into a liquid, you'd know why
 

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Anybody try converting to propane?
I'm old enough to remember how popular propane conversion was in the 70's. In countries like South Korea, propane and natural gas cars are very popular. I like the idea of propane or natural gas for a vehicle

Honda will sell/lease a natural gas Civic in certain markets. If I ever move back to Utah I'd be driving one

2008 Honda Civic GX - the Official Honda Web Site

About the only thing you have to watch out for when running a motor on natural gas or propane is that most min-spec conventional oils tend to break down and create excessive nitration. Also, conventional additive packages result in ash deposits. Most synthetic oils are resistant to this, and there are specialized oils intended for use with propane and natural gas, eg forklift trucks, NG transit buses, Waukesha industrial motors, etc

Here are some oils I know of that work well with sweet/sour gas used in oilfield pumping, and industrial use:

Schaeffer's 15W-40 Motor Oil

http://www.esso.ca/Canada-English/Files/Products_Lubes/IOCAENINDESEssolube_G.pdf

http://www.esso.ca/Canada-English/Files/Products_Lubes/IOCAENINDESEssolube_GA.pdf

http://www.esso.ca/Canada-English/Files/Products_Lubes/IOCAENINDESEssolube_GLX_Plus.pdf
 

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I've noticed that Amsoil also has an oil for running in Natural Gas Engines. ANG (20W)-40.
Interesting, I have no doubt there are others too but the ones I listed are the only ones I have experience with.

It's also interesting that among the heavy duty natural gas engines they listed, they mentioned "Wartsaila" but not Waukesha. Waukesha is American and quite a few are used in oilfield and offshore platforms. The other company is actually Wartsila, and they are headquartered in Helsinki, Finland
 
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