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As long as my aftermarket suspension bits fit on a diesel FJ, I'd trade in a heartbeat. I'd pay 30, maybe eve 35K for a turbodiesel 6 cyl.

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Umm... ya. you seriously think that a deisel version would cost as little as 30K? my guess that if this did become a reality, your looking at closer to 40K with decent options. You might be able to get it around 35, if its stripped, but thats doubtfull.

Que? The mileage in a 4000cc motor will be only slightly better. What I think you are wanting is a 4 cylinder turbo D or a much smaller V6 in displacement.
Otherwise 20mpg will be 25mpg with higher fuel prices and just wait until you go for an oil change and fuel filter swap every other oil change. Just ask a F-350 owner.
Agreed. There's alot more mantanice with a desiel motor that many don't realize (Not talking about anyone in paticular, just people in general. Oil changes cost more, fuel filters, and repairs in general are going to more expensive.

Scroll down to page 13 to see how the new 4.2 and 5.6 liter Cummins engines (which were in development with the Dept of Energy when this was written) compare with the 4.7 and 5.7 liter gas engines. Almost 50% increase in the combined driving averages.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2004/session9/2004_deer_stang2.pdf

Notice that these tests are dated 2004 which helps you understand how slowly things progress from development and testing to actual production . . . which helps explain why we aren't already driving diesel FJs.

One or both of these diesels is slated to be released in the Dodge Ram 1/2 tons in 2009 as a 2010 model. Ford and Chevy also have small diesel in development for their 1/2 ton trucks to be released about the same time.

Thats all fine and dandy for GM and dodge, but intill we see a desiel made by toyota for the FJ/4 Runner, tacoma platform, we really don't know how effecient it really will be. I'm not trying to be negative, but realistic. I to would love to see Toyota stuff a desiel in an FJ just give us more options, but the more i look into it, the more i honestly don't see the advantages.

Yes, there's no doubt that in towing, its all about deisels. NO argument what so ever there. Effecientcy..... Ya, the idea is that it supposed to be 50% more, but that doesn't mean its going to be. The big three are having that problem right now.

You're not seeing the mileage gains b/c of the big 3's "power wars".

When you're punching out 325+hp and 650 ft.-lbs....you don't get very good mileage.

My 02 high output Cummins puts out 245 hp and 505 ft lbs....and gets 20 mpg in town (and I drive like a bat outta hell) 24 on the highway and 20 mpg pulling a 5K lbs trailer at 75. Not bad for a 7800 lb 4x4 truck.
I really don't think the power has anything to do with it. More that there trying to meet the new smog requirments. My neibor has an 07 dodge ram mega cab with the old 5.9 Cummin's. He's constantly bragging to me that he can get over 20mpg unloaded, and in the high teens when towing his corvette to shows.
 

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I have the non smog 2007 GMC. I have never seen anywhere near those numbers nor have I talked with anyone else that I trust that have.

I drive very sensibly. No high speeds and very little stop and go with the truck. I had a F350 2006 that was the largest nightmare I have ever owned. It would not get more than 12 miles to the gallon.

All along Ford and GMC stating that I should get near 20 unloaded.

The cost of maintaining a diesel is so far and above the gas engines that it is laughable. The dealers actually try to get you to change the oil at 5000 mile intervals. Even though the manuals tell you to go by the percentage caluclator in the computer.

I had a F700 that got 11 miles to the gallon loaded or unloaded.

Yes they are quieter, nicer, but I would never own one if I did not have a large trailer to pull. The cost of operation one is so much higher in every aspect it seems to me.

I doubt seriously that Toyota would bring one in under the 40k mark anyway. You better plan to keep it forever, because the resale value will fall faster than anything out there. There is a place for a diesel, but I just do not think it is the offroad answer.
 

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I really don't think the power has anything to do with it. More that there trying to meet the new smog requirments. My neibor has an 07 dodge ram mega cab with the old 5.9 Cummin's. He's constantly bragging to me that he can get over 20mpg unloaded, and in the high teens when towing his corvette to shows.

Really? See, everyone I know that's into diesels is into them b/c they tow. So, whoever makes the most power stock is the one they look at first....if they get passed up by the next year model of brand X, the owners start looking for performance mods like chip, exhaust, bigger turbos, different injectors, etc.

IME, power (especially when diesel wasn't so damn expensive) was what was driving the truck sales in the diesel market. Creature comforts like the Mega cab were up there as well....but the majority of the fuss was about how much you could pull and what kind of tq numbers you could make.

As for your neighbor's 07....I don't buy it, unless you've seen it with your own eyes. Everyone I know with the 03 or newer 5.9L has only gotten 17 or so, auto or manual. Same with the Duramaxs....about 17 is the best I've seen and the Ford's with the 6.0L were well below that....13-14. Still not bad numbers considering the power they put out....but personally, I don't mind giving up 150 ft. lbs and gaining 3+ mpg.

Now the new 6.7L Cummins....yes, that one is solely emissions limited. It only makes a little more power (like 5 more hp and only a few more ft-lbs)than the 07 5.9L....b/c it's so heavily regulated.

Sean
 

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I'd buy one too or trade..oops...I don't think they would take the RAPTOR on a trade in. :lol:
 

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The cost of maintaining a diesel is so far and above the gas engines that it is laughable. The dealers actually try to get you to change the oil at 5000 mile intervals. Even though the manuals tell you to go by the percentage caluclator in the computer.

I had a F700 that got 11 miles to the gallon loaded or unloaded.

Yes they are quieter, nicer, but I would never own one if I did not have a large trailer to pull. The cost of operation one is so much higher in every aspect it seems to me.

I doubt seriously that Toyota would bring one in under the 40k mark anyway. You better plan to keep it forever, because the resale value will fall faster than anything out there. There is a place for a diesel, but I just do not think it is the offroad answer.
These are points that unless you have/own a desiel in the past many people fail to see. Higher price for fuel, higher initial purchase cost, higher maintance cost. And concidering that the FJ is basicly a brick wall going down the road, i'm kinda doubting that it will get the mileage that most people think that it will get.

I was having a disscusion about this with a couple buddies of mine today. They brought up a good point that hadn't crossed my mind. Lets say toyota does go for this. Lets say that they do put a deisel in the FJ, and even the Tundra for that matter. if there are issuses (And being the first model year of a new desiel engine there are bound to be some), we have to untrust our rigs to be fixed by techncians that have no experiance on working on desiel engines. Now i'm sure toyota will send there techs to school, but learning how to work on desiels doesn't happen over night. When i was a tech at ford, we had customers that drove 60+ miles to our dealer cause of some of the experaince our desiels techs had. Again, i'm not trying to be negative on a deisel FJ, but if toyota does read this forum, then i hope these are issuse that they will address.
 

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I kinda disagree about the maintenance cost. Yes, you do oil changes more often and use more oil....but I run rotella with factory filters ($13 a piece from the Cummins dealer by the case and I buy the Rotella from Costco by the case as well).

For my gas engines, I use Mobil One and Mobil 1 filters or K&N....neither is a cheap oil change.

I also change both diesel or gas between 3K-4K miles (Overkill I know, but for what the oil costs....not that bad as cheap insurance).

The difference that I can see is long term. I keep my vehicles until they absolutely die. If you don't, then a diesel is a bad investment (unless you tow all the time).

A good diesel should go 300K miles before any real problems....and many go much further....especially in Cummins and Cats. I know the Cummins can be rebuilt 3 times b/c of it's cylinder wall thickness. You can't do that with a gasser and very few make it to 300K miles in the first place though with Toyotas it's more common.

My point is: the maintenance really isn't that much higher. You don't have timing belts that need changing, you don't have spark plugs. Diesels are just generally more robust. Yes, you have two batteries (on most models of bigger diesel), but really....where's the huge increase in cost? I personally don't see it. If it's a reliable diesel to begin with, maintenance is very minimal....moreso that the average gas engine.

Sean
 

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Really? See, everyone I know that's into diesels is into them b/c they tow. So, whoever makes the most power stock is the one they look at first....if they get passed up by the next year model of brand X, the owners start looking for performance mods like chip, exhaust, bigger turbos, different injectors, etc.
No aurgument that desiels can tow. Thats what they were built for. And yes, no doubt that the more power you have, the easier it gernerally is. when people start pushing 500+hp, and near 1,000 ft-pds of torque your going to see drastic decrease in gas mileage.

IME, power (especially when diesel wasn't so damn expensive) was what was driving the truck sales in the diesel market. Creature comforts like the Mega cab were up there as well....but the majority of the fuss was about how much you could pull and what kind of tq numbers you could make.


I'm not saying that the power war doesn't drive the market for desiels, but being a tech for ford, we saw the mileage start going down when the emission laws were starting to come into effect. To bad too, cause Ford/international really had something with the 7.3 powerstroke.



As for your neighbor's 07....I don't buy it, unless you've seen it with your own eyes. Everyone I know with the 03 or newer 5.9L has only gotten 17 or so, auto or manual. Same with the Duramaxs....about 17 is the best I've seen and the Ford's with the 6.0L were well below that....13-14. Still not bad numbers considering the power they put out....but personally, I don't mind giving up 150 ft. lbs and gaining 3+ mpg.
I have seen it. At least thats what his computer was showing on an hour trip he took me on to go pickup some corrvette parts.(Man that was one comfortable truck:)) No aurguments about the 6.0. people were *****in left and right. That was such a crap motor to begin with though.

Now the new 6.7L Cummins....yes, that one is solely emissions limited. It only makes a little more power (like 5 more hp and only a few more ft-lbs)than the 07 5.9L....b/c it's so heavily regulated.

Sean
And it looks like the new 6.4 isn't doing much better. while the reliability seems to be alot better for its first year of release than the 6.0, the mileage 6.4 owners have been getting have been alot worse. averaging around 10 to 12 unloaded.

Its numbers like these that make seeing a desiel FJ less and less desirable.

I kinda disagree about the maintenance cost. Yes, you do oil changes more often and use more oil....but I run rotella with factory filters ($13 a piece from the Cummins dealer by the case and I buy the Rotella from Costco by the case as well).

For my gas engines, I use Mobil One and Mobil 1 filters or K&N....neither is a cheap oil change.

I also change both diesel or gas between 3K-4K miles (Overkill I know, but for what the oil costs....not that bad as cheap insurance).

The difference that I can see is long term. I keep my vehicles until they absolutely die. If you don't, then a diesel is a bad investment (unless you tow all the time).

A good diesel should go 300K miles before any real problems....and many go much further....especially in Cummins and Cats. I know the Cummins can be rebuilt 3 times b/c of it's cylinder wall thickness. You can't do that with a gasser and very few make it to 300K miles in the first place though with Toyotas it's more common.

My point is: the maintenance really isn't that much higher. You don't have timing belts that need changing, you don't have spark plugs. Diesels are just generally more robust. Yes, you have two batteries (on most models of bigger diesel), but really....where's the huge increase in cost? I personally don't see it. If it's a reliable diesel to begin with, maintenance is very minimal....moreso that the average gas engine.

Sean
Well, i'll use fords as an example since there the ones i'm most familair with. An oil change for a 5.4 gas V-8 took about 6 quarts of oil, and cost around 15 to 20 bucks in parts. A desiel 6.0 takes 14 quarts and costa around 80 to 90 bucks to change. To be honest, i really don't consider a 4K oil change on a deisel over kill since the condition of the oil really can affect the perfomance of a desiel engine. Better safe than sorry. But anyways, back to the disscussion at hand.
even if you put royal purple in your rig, you still won't spend that much every oil change. Then there's fuel filters to replace and it seems that every time a new desiel is released, they add more filters. The 6.0 has 2, and one id located on the frame rail thats a real pain in the ass to change. If its a 4x4 the front drve shaft gets in the way and it just makes it even worse. (sorry, thats just me *****'en from my days of doing the maintance on desiels:))

Air filters used to have to be replaced nearly every oil change or more, but i know ford (Have no clue about cummin's or duramax) have the new 30,000 mile air filters that are supposed to flow better, and only need to be replaced every..you guessed it 30,000 miles. But to be honest, that number was more like 10 to 15. And they were conciderably more expensive than the average filter for that reason alone.

As far as if anything major goes wrong, parts are generally more expensive than there gasoline counterparts, and ussually cost more labor wise. To do anything major on fords new 6.4, you have to lift the cab of the truck 7 feet. I went in to get a part for a crown vic i was working on, and i saw one in the air. Turns out it had a fuel leak, and the only way to replace the line was to remove the cab. Can't wait to see the bill people will get when these rigs go out of warranty. From my understanding, cummin's are alot simpler since there overall design hasn't changed much in the last decade.

I will agree with you that a properly maintained desiel will outlast a simular gas engine if built right from the get go. (obviously this doesn't include the 6.0 engine:ninja:)and if you plan on keeping ti for 300K then yes, maybe a desiel will be the engine is right for you. But from what i've seen on here, most want them simply cause they beilve they'll get a few extra miles to the gallon. Some have stressed that its better for crawling, but again, i don't need 350ftpds to do that. I've been doing just fine with the 280 i have. Unless your going to constanly be towing, or plan on keeping your rig for 300+k, then i'm not seeing the advantage.

Again, we won't truely know intill toyota makes the offical aouncment that there going to stuff a desiel in. Since the FJ wasn't built with towing in mind, the only real benifit i see by putting a desiel engine in the FJ would be the increase in gas mileage. With the higher cost of desiel, most manufactuers being held back by emission regulations, and the fact that the FJ has the aero dynamics of a brick wall going down the road, i'm not sure if it really is going to do all that much better. Again, i know the idea is supposed to be 50% more effcient, but as some have protested with there current desiel trucks this just hasn't been the case. Kinda sucks that GM's new gas engines in there half tons are getting better mileage than thier desiel counterparts.....
...Or my V-6 FJ for that matter. Heck, maybe i should go by a full size gas truck if i really want to save gas!:lol:
 

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I can agree with all that.....

There's apparently a big difference in Ford and Dodge (can't speak for Duramax) in terms of ease of maintenance. My 5.9L is the EASIEST fuel filter change I've ever had to do on any vehicle period. Filters when bought by the case are pretty cheap from the Cummins dealer (NOT Dodge....who charges 2-3 times as much).

My truck uses 11 quarts of Rotella, but since I use Mobil 1 in my cars, the price is just slightly higher.

My air filters (I also buy by the case) don't need to be changed nearly that often and I drive a lot of dusty roads to the trail heads for my 4wheeling. Maybe has a better intake system?? I dunno. Filters aren't more expensive than the ones for my gassers.

It may be that the lower parts costs are due to the fact that I can go direct to Cummins rather than the dealer. Do you have a local IH near you? Is it like Cummins where you can just go there to get parts for the 6.4 or 6.0 or 7.3?

Just curious.
Sean
 

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I can agree with all that.....

There's apparently a big difference in Ford and Dodge (can't speak for Duramax) in terms of ease of maintenance. My 5.9L is the EASIEST fuel filter change I've ever had to do on any vehicle period. Filters when bought by the case are pretty cheap from the Cummins dealer (NOT Dodge....who charges 2-3 times as much).

My truck uses 11 quarts of Rotella, but since I use Mobil 1 in my cars, the price is just slightly higher.

My air filters (I also buy by the case) don't need to be changed nearly that often and I drive a lot of dusty roads to the trail heads for my 4wheeling. Maybe has a better intake system?? I dunno. Filters aren't more expensive than the ones for my gassers.

It may be that the lower parts costs are due to the fact that I can go direct to Cummins rather than the dealer. Do you have a local IH near you? Is it like Cummins where you can just go there to get parts for the 6.4 or 6.0 or 7.3?

Just curious.
Sean
No doubt that parts are going to be cheaper by the case. If you've got the funds to do it, that defenatly would be the route to go.

I do have an IH dealer near me. About 18 miles. To be honest, i don't know if they would carry the oil filters and air filters for the 6.0, 7.3, and 6.4 since iv'e never had to buy filters. My guess would be if cummin's does it, i don't see why IH wouldn't either. I have a question though...
Is the 5.9 in your truck used in alot more applications that IH engines made for ford? (farm and constuction equipment etc..) If so then i can defenatly see cummin's carring filters and such in there dealers more so than IH would since those engines were preety much made for ford for there super duty pickups. Again, not sure if this is the case or not. Very possible that you can walk into an IH dealer and by oil and air filters by the case just like for Cummin's and cat for a fraction of the price dealers charge.
 

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No doubt that parts are going to be cheaper by the case. If you've got the funds to do it, that defenatly would be the route to go.

I do have an IH dealer near me. About 18 miles. To be honest, i don't know if they would carry the oil filters and air filters for the 6.0, 7.3, and 6.4 since iv'e never had to buy filters. My guess would be if cummin's does it, i don't see why IH wouldn't either. I have a question though...
Is the 5.9 in your truck used in alot more applications that IH engines made for ford? (farm and constuction equipment etc..) If so then i can defenatly see cummin's carring filters and such in there dealers more so than IH would since those engines were preety much made for ford for there super duty pickups. Again, not sure if this is the case or not. Very possible that you can walk into an IH dealer and by oil and air filters by the case just like for Cummin's and cat for a fraction of the price dealers charge.

Ya, the 5.9L is basically the same engine used in UPS trucks, various medium duty transport trucks, some school buses, etc. so....ya, they are in alot of other applications than just the Dodge trucks.

Sean
 

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I would. You guys would get another sale as fast as I could get to my dealer if you put a diesel in an FJ. Turbo diesel would be really nice.

Like the old Hilux Surf. A Turbo blowing right into the intake manifold.

I'd also like to say, that you made the Tacoma too big. Offer a smaller truck like my 89 Toyota "Pickup" that I still have and love, with the same diesel you put in the FJ, and Mel and I would buy it along with the diesel FJ.

We don't need anything so big in the pickup department, and you now have no options for smaller trucks. My buddy was thinking of getting a new pickup, and when we compared the size and price of the Ford Ranger to the Tacoma for a daily driver, weekend dirt bike hauler, and light camping/wheeling rig, the Tacoma loses. Sucks, because I would never drive a Ford but in this case, my buddy made some very good points I can't ignore.
with todays gas prices I will sell my fj in the next couple of month


will never buy an suv again, just too expensive


diesel fj, with 30mpg, why not :)
 

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Just got back from Europe. Everything is diesel. I didn't recognize too many cars available in the US but most I saw were diesel.
 

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yeah, even luxury s class, or audi a8 have v8's diesel, still get 35mpg

what us has done is ridiculous, the politicians and the big 3 lobby have f..k us over


now they are getting what they deserved,

thats what you get for being greedy and stupid,
home sales are down, car sales are down, recession coming up
 

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I drove a Mercedes A-Class. It's about the size of a Prius. Other than a slight rattle, you couldn't tell it was a disel. It accellerated quite well for an engine the size of a large displacement motorcycle.
 

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I drove a Mercedes A-Class. It's about the size of a Prius. Other than a slight rattle, you couldn't tell it was a disel. It accellerated quite well for an engine the size of a large displacement motorcycle.
so did I :)

lets not forget about 60mpg and no it wasnt a hybrid car
 

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so did I :)

lets not forget about 60mpg and no it wasnt a hybrid car
Not sure what mileage I got. I drove for a week and didn't use a tank of fuel.
 
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