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IFS argument

11K views 59 replies 17 participants last post by  DrSolar 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Very respectfully, I simply could NOT DISAGREE MORE. These drivers are excellent wheelers and yet nearly all experienced significant breakage or the need to go heavy on the throttle. Throttle is no substitute for being able to keep all wheels on the ground, pulling, flexing and all working the same.

Indeed, hats off to the IFS group for pulling off a first in terms of the IFS group doing Claw Hammer. I bow down. However, my guess is that the SFA rigs made it pretty much look easy. Throw an inchworm, an SFA and a front locker into an FJ and it makes it infinitely more capable.

My two cents.
 
#4 ·
Very respectfully, I simply could NOT DISAGREE MORE. These drivers are excellent wheelers and yet nearly all experienced significant breakage or the need to go heavy on the throttle. Throttle is no substitute for being able to keep all wheels on the ground, pulling, flexing and all working the same.

Indeed, hats off to the IFS group for pulling off a first in terms of the IFS group doing Claw Hammer. I bow down. However, my guess is that the SFA rigs made it pretty much look easy. Throw an inchworm, an SFA and a front locker into an FJ and it makes it infinitely more capable.

My two cents.
And a long travel suspension for those live axles. x2
 
#3 ·
Exactly....

IFS blows compared to live axle for rockcrawling. There really is NO DEBATE about this.

It's a foregone conclusion that only the ill-educated or completely inexperienced would bother to argue.

Sean
 
#9 ·
Who said IFS = SFA. I believe many folks have said IFS can not follow an SFA rig, well here is evidence it can. It's not about wheel lifting off the ground its about the fact they made it out. Read my sig I owned 2 jeep I know the difference, but the whole IFS is useless should really be put to rest. If it is then how did a bunch of IFS rigs just finish Claw Hammer?

The hammers are some of the toughest trails out there. I am not trying to become the first FJ pro rock crawler I am a regular guy trying to wheel and apparently the FJ does just fine. That is my point. Unless we are talking ultra extreme rock climbing the IFS can't follow an SFA with comparable equipment is quickly becoming a moot point. I think most of us here don't do anything ultra extreme like climbing vertical rock faces or boulders that tower over our rig. Only FULL CUSTOM rigs with SFA do that not even a Rubicon is going to be seen running a pro-rock challenge.

So whoa there kemosabe. I think I just said that it put a DAMPER on teh argument correct? Sheeesh, touchy people.
 
#13 ·
if you want to build a rig to hit the rocks with, i for sure wouldnt choose a IFS such as the FJ. IFS has its place, and so does a SFA. yes, they overlap, but a IFS would get beat to death crawling anything of decent size, and the SFA would get beat to death in some baja applications that a IFS would excel in.

my goal would be to build the vehicle to overcome any obsticles you plan on running into in the areas you frequent. why would you torture yourself putting a IFS through the rubicon 15 times a year just because it can? i would go the safer route and build something that would tackle those obsticles with ease. i guess what i'm getting at is build the vehicle to what you wheel in. my FJ given the same ground clearance as my jeep would scare the **** out of me because it would be on 2-3 wheels anytime my SFA Jeep would be on all 4 walking over everything with ease. i wouldnt want to chance tipping it on every obsticle or breaking a CV every time i had to lead foot it just to get my limiting IFS over an obsticle.

i apologize for the rant. maybe i can choose my words a little better tomorrow and take a better stab at it when i am rested.
 
#10 ·
My turn,

I have wheeled almost every trail that I have done with both a IFS and SACed Taco. It's not a matter of if you can do it but how easy it is. I have done Claw hammer with IFS it was fun, I have done much worse trails in AZ with IFS right along with a group of SASed trucks. I have even managed to not break a thing with IFS running 35's while others on the same trail broke parts left and right.
I really didn't start breaking parts till I did the swap but that was mostly axle shafts. I found my self taking harder and harder lines to the point where the body and vehicle size became the limiting factor. No different trails just took all the hard lines. I can't express how much more fun a well set up vehicle is on a trail. But at the same time I got way more satisfaction from using less and doing more with IFS. It made for a great challenge.

Build your vehicle the best you can and know it and its limits. You can have fun both ways just know your limits.
 
#11 ·
I am not sure that anyone can beat SFA for offroad, but can SFA beat IFS for both off-road and on-road performance? I don't know about y'all, but my rig has double-duty, and the SFA crowd doesn't seem to be interested in the asphalt. No hating, seriously, but if the taxes pay for highways, why not use 'em?
 
#12 ·
SFA is not better at all offroading than an IFS.

In the rocks and really off camber, yes, no questions. High speed runs out in the desert, i would rather have IFS.
 
#16 ·
I disagree....a standard D44 would be a decent strength upgrade to an FJC....With a careful driver, judicious use of the throttle and good lines, you could run 35-37s and only break an axle occassionally.

However, for the money, you aren't going to spend much more to put in a 1T front axle other than the initial purchase price and very slightly higher component prices.

Sean
 
#39 ·
It was so bad, that Walker ditched it and went back to solid axles. Pretty sure he ditched it mid-season, but he may have completed that one. I know he dropped from 3rd in standings the previous year to 40th (course depends on the series).

Sean
 
#46 ·
What seems odd to me is that designs still fix on springs in order to allow for flex. Even air springs are springs. The problem is that it would be nice to keep the most tire tread on the ground at all times, but the springs mean that the amount of pressure on the wheel varies with suspension positioning. I've seen marine applications where hydraulic rams levelled the base of a control arm despite the pitch of the deck. The valving for the control mechanism was very simple and entirely mechanical - no electronics.

Has anyone worked on an predominantly hydraulic suspension system? I envision a level seeking valve mechanism that communicates between shock/rams and shares the weight better than springs.
 
#47 ·
Yes. And it kicks the **** out of EVERYTHING else. Tracy Jordan and Don Robbins were both running this set up on their FJ40s WAAAAY back when before the comp scene really took off.

Due to comp rules you couldn't use the hydraulics in comp though (well, some series let you but it was heavily regulated and penalized).

In short, if you want the most capable 4x4 vehicle ever built, you build it with air over hydraulic rams at each corner. You have to run a huge, heavy accumulator and a giant electric pump to make the system work....and it's heavy as hell, but there is simply not one other set up that can work like the air over hydraulic ram set ups these guys had.

To give credit where it's due: Jason Paule is the one that set up Tracy's. To give the credit for driving where it's due: Tracy and Don both learned by repeated roll overs how to make it work (especially with the rear steer they both had).

Tracy sold his FJ40 a few years back.....it was beat to hell but someone got a steal for $14K....even the way it was set up with SRING UNDER front D60, a leaking 383 stroker (well hell, it leaked everything to be more accurate....Tracy always said, "Let me know if it stops leaking....then I'll start worrying" :lol:), rolled more times than I can count, etc.

It was the most bad ass rig I've ever seen, period.

Sean
 
#50 ·
Those rigs were badass for their time but as time changes and things progressed those rigs went the way of the dinosaur. The hydraulic systems made them very heavy and unable to climb the big obstcles. They were awesome for slow speed manuvering and picking individual tires up and over rocks but as the coures got more difficult and the climbs got bigger they couldn't compete. Todays rockcrawlers have suspensions that are more compliant to the obstacles, they need to be able to hit the obstacle with more momentum because the climbs are much bigger than they used to be and the suspension needs to be able to soak it up and keep all four tires planted pulling as hard as possible. Tracy Jordan is the fiercest competitor out there and sure made those old school rigs look good but you wouldn't see him driving one now.

JonB
 
#49 ·
Agreed.

Being a fly on the wall during discussions like this I am bound to learn something. If anything I read something and go "WTF is he talking about", the google it and read more about it. Only so much more can fit into my tiny little brain guys so try to use small words and pictues on my behalf. :rofl:
 
#59 ·

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#60 · (Edited)
Here is something to add to the pot. Made it through John bull with my FJ. The trip was annoying and made me realize I don't really have fun doing hard core stuff anymore, but it made it in stock condition, only a lift and tires changed. The only issue I encountered was a lack of ground clearance. If I had a 6" lift and 35, it would have been cake. If I had a front locker it would have been chocolate cake. I never ran into any real travel issues with the IFS that stopped me from going forward, but it needs lockers up front and clearance to climb large rocks.

We passed several buff jeeps that I am sure were amazed as we drove through the trail. I really don't want to do that type of crawling any more though, its to stressful. At my age I want peace and quiet.

We went up with 2 FJ's and 3 Jeeps. Two of the Jeeps busted axles, so yes, the trail was really rough, but we made it out fine. I had a bent exhaust hanger and both of our FJ's had the plastic parts pulled out which popped back in place, good as new.

Still say IFS does just fine from hands on experience. Just don't take it to PRO Rock Crawling.

The Dr.
 
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