Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have a 2007 FJ with a manual transmission. The manual calls for 75W/90 GL-4 or GL-5 for the transmission; for the front and rear differentials it calls for 90W GL-5; and for the transfer case 75W/90 GL-5.

My questions:
1. Where can I buy 90W GL-5? I checked Amsoil, Red Line and Swepco's websites and none of them appear they sell it.

2. Could I use Swepco 201, GL-5 80W/90 for the differentials even if the manual calls for 90W?

3. Is there much difference between 75W/90 and 80W/90? If not, could I use Swepco 201 GL-5 80W/90 for the transmission and transfer case?

TIA,

Carl
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,288 Posts
The 75/90 Mobil one meets the specs too for an off the shelf solution
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,160 Posts
Manual Gear & Differential Oils

There is no way I would run a GL-5 in my manual transmission since all GL-5 oil contain sulfurs which is going to kill the brass synchros inside the transmission. I have been running the Redlineoil MT-90 GL-4 in my 6/MT trans with no problem since 2010 and there are a lot of us that are using it in this forum as well with great result. http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=46

The GL-5 oil is good for the T-case, front and the rear Diff and that is it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WVhillbilly

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,129 Posts
Re: Manual Gear & Differential Oils

There is no way I would run a GL-5 in my manual transmission since all GL-5 oil contain sulfurs which is going to kill the brass synchros inside the transmission.
Always trying to differentiate between "tribal knowledge" and reality, can you point me to any authoritative source that can confirm that gear oil with EP additives attacks or degrades brass or bronze transmission components?

Manual transmissions have utilized brass bushings, bronze synchro rings, bronze thrust washers, etc. since the beginning of time, and additive-laden GL lubricants have been in common use for 50+ years. You'd think the web would be overflowing with photos of bronze transmission parts that have been "eaten" by gear oils with EP additives.

I was able to find several references on the web to EP gear oil causing bronze bushing/synchro ring damage, but these were all from "shade-tree" mechanics and not from transmission manufacturers or other authoritative
sources.

I fully agree that specially-compounded synthetic manual transmission lubricants may be better than standard EP gear lubes, giving lubricant film protection to the sliding surfaces of the gear teeth while still allowing the synchro rings to develop enough friction to spin the mating gear up to synchronization speed during a shift.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,458 Posts
Re: Manual Gear & Differential Oils

There is no way I would run a GL-5 in my manual transmission since all GL-5 oil contain sulfurs which is going to kill the brass synchros inside the transmission. I have been running the Redlineoil MT-90 GL-4 in my 6/MT trans with no problem since 2010 and there are a lot of us that are using it in this forum as well with great result. Red Line Synthetic Oil - Gear Oil for Manual Transmissions - MT-90 75W90 GL-4 Gear Oil

The GL-5 oil is good for the T-case, front and the rear Diff and that is it.
I can second that after having to help my brother in law change his manual tranny on his 1995 Pathfinder due to the fact he had been using GL-5 oil in tranny thru out the life of the vehicle and most of those fluid changes were done by the dealer. The vehicle has( 450,000 kms) now and at about 300,000 kms he noticed his 5th gear getting verynoisey, he kept driving like that doing transmission fluid changes every 50,000 kms as he had done thru out the life of the vehicle. At 400,000 kms his vehicle lost the first gear but was still drivable in other gears and he ended changing the tranny for a new one.
during this time while helping him figure why this was happening, it became apparent that even though owners manual called for GL-4 fluid no Nissan dealer even carried that fluid as they now carried GL-5 fluid would tell us that it was reversely compatible for GL-4 fluid. Which might be true for the differentials but is not for manual tranny. long story short you might be able to use GL-5 fluid for a lot of years and miles without any issues but it will eventually do irreversible damage to you tranny if you are using GL-5 fluid where GL-4 is stated in the owners manual for manual transmissions.
Mobil 1 delvac, Redline, GM all still sell GL-4 gear oil which does not harm the brass synchros.

I just thought I would share this with everyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,129 Posts
Re: Manual Gear & Differential Oils

(snip) ... long story short you might be able to use GL-5 fluid for a lot of years and miles without any issues but it will eventually do irreversible damage to you tranny if you are using GL-5 fluid where GL-4 is stated in the owners manual for manual transmissions. /QUOTE]

Can you provide some specific information on what type of "irreversible damage" the GL-5 gear inflicted on the brass/bronze components in the transmission you are speaking about?

And in my opinion, getting 248,000 miles out of a manual transmission (including the "soft" brass & bronze parts like synchros, bushings, etc.) would seem like a pretty good service life.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,458 Posts
Re: Manual Gear & Differential Oils

(snip) ... long story short you might be able to use GL-5 fluid for a lot of years and miles without any issues but it will eventually do irreversible damage to you tranny if you are using GL-5 fluid where GL-4 is stated in the owners manual for manual transmissions. /QUOTE]

Can you provide some specific information on what type of "irreversible damage" the GL-5 gear inflicted on the brass/bronze components in the transmission you are speaking about?
In this case it started with the 5th gear getting noisier that while driving on the freeway the driver and pass could not have a conversation without speaking really loud with each other. This happened over period of time,and one could tell the difference in noise level between 4th and 5th gears Also When the the tranny fluid was drained there would be a lot of metal shavings stuck to the drain plug magnet. at point he took the vehicle to a few different transmission shops to see if something could be done to reduce the noise and also prevent huge amount of metal shavings, he was told by few different transmission shops that the synchros were going and the tranny would require a rebuild or replacement.
when he asked why were they going as he had kept up with required maintenance, he was told it was most likely due to wrong fluid being used. he would go to the Nissan dealerships to buy his fluids when he started doing his own maintenance and they would give him GL-5 gear oil saying it was what they used as GL-4 was no longer available even though he would ask for GL-4 as per owners manual. When the first gear went and he talked to a experienced tranny shop mechanic during his research to try to find another transmission, he was informed that GL-5 fluids can be used in differentials where GL-4
specified but not in manual transmissions.
The lesson that I learnt from all this was to stick with stated fluids as per owners manual.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,458 Posts
Re: Manual Gear & Differential Oils

[/QUOTE] And in my opinion, getting 248,000 miles out of a manual transmission (including the "soft" brass & bronze parts like synchros, bushings, etc.) would seem like a pretty good service life.[/QUOTE]




I beg to differ with you on this as I Have a Mazda 1990 Mazda B2200 5 speed manual with close to 500,000 kms that is used on my farm for hauling 1000 lbs to 2000 lbs of blueberries all summer long ( beyond its rated load capacity)
but always followed owners manual in regards to the type of fluids etc and it still runs great with no issues with the tranny. The pathfinder on the other hand is only used for fairly light duty in comparision to my Mazda, so one would hope that tranny should last at least as long as the Mazda, if regular maintenance is done on time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,129 Posts
Re: Manual Gear & Differential Oils

And in my opinion, getting 248,000 miles out of a manual transmission (including the "soft" brass & bronze parts like synchros, bushings, etc.) would seem like a pretty good service life.

[/QUOTE] I beg to differ with you on this (snip) [/QUOTE]

Not clear what you are saying here ... you think a service life of 248,000 miles is NOT a pretty good service life for a manual transmission??

In the real world, across many different makes and models of transmissions, a 248,000 mile service life is quite good.

And, you seem to be confusing bronze synchronizer ring "deterioration" caused by corrosion by GL-5 lubricant with the normal wear & tear of steel parts. None of the debris clinging to your drain plug magnet was synchronizer debris.

Nothing you have said indicates that any type of deterioration of yellow metal parts contributed to the noise the transmission was making. This is typically caused by extreme bearing wear, which is noisy itself, but also allows misalignment of main shaft & countershaft, which allows improper contact between the gear teeth & results in even more noise.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,160 Posts
Manual Gear & Differential Oils

Always trying to differentiate between "tribal knowledge" and reality, can you point me to any authoritative source that can confirm that gear oil with EP additives attacks or degrades brass or bronze transmission components?



Manual transmissions have utilized brass bushings, bronze synchro rings, bronze thrust washers, etc. since the beginning of time, and additive-laden GL lubricants have been in common use for 50+ years. You'd think the web would be overflowing with photos of bronze transmission parts that have been "eaten" by gear oils with EP additives.



I was able to find several references on the web to EP gear oil causing bronze bushing/synchro ring damage, but these were all from "shade-tree" mechanics and not from transmission manufacturers or other authoritative

sources.



I fully agree that specially-compounded synthetic manual transmission lubricants may be better than standard EP gear lubes, giving lubricant film protection to the sliding surfaces of the gear teeth while still allowing the synchro rings to develop enough friction to spin the mating gear up to synchronization speed during a shift.

Ok brother, here are some facts for you and others as well. I have been working for the oil refinery for a long time and had to call my good friend the chemist at ExonMobil and he sent me a link which explains why you shouldn't be using a GL-5 rated oil in the manual transmission. Cheers

http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf
 
  • Like
Reactions: johnqp and FAUJI

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,129 Posts
Re: Manual Gear & Differential Oils

Ok brother, I have been working for the oil refiner for a long time and had to call my good friend the chemist at ExonMobil and he sent me a link which explains why you shouldn't be using a GL-5 rated oil in the manual transmission. Cheers
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf
I did a pretty extensive web search yesterday before I posted my request for "authoritative" data, and the page by the Corvair enthusiast was one of the first to pop up on a Google search. This happens to be the same page you provided a link to.

However, the author (Mr. Widman) appears to be a Corvair enthusiast, repeating what he picked up from various sources. Nowhere in Mr. Widman's writeup does he indicate he has any qualifications as a petroleum chemist, tribology engineer, automotive powertrain engineer, etc. No data from any authoritative sources, just Mr. Widman's personal opinions. His assertions that GL-5 oil somehow "peels" material (his words) off of synchro rings are just assertions, ZERO data is provided. Mr. Widman has written other papers covering lubricants and lubrication of Corvair engines, and they appear to be well written and easily understood. I'm not saying that they are inaccurate or untrue, they are just not backed up by links to authoritative sources.

This "gear oil eats brass parts" discussion has come up many times in many different automotive forums. Despite all the talk, I was not able to come up with any specific data from any authoritative sources.

In a Mercedes Unimog forum I did come across some "talk" about early versions of unbuffered GL-5 lubricants causing discoloration of yellow metals at temperatures above 250F, but again this was just an assertion with no data or source attribution. If the gear oil in your manual transmission FJ ever reaches 250F, you've got bigger problems to worry about than discoloration of yellow metals.

So, the challenge is still open: can anyone find ANY SAE test report, a TSB from ANY auto manufacturer, a technical bulletin from ANY lubricant manufacturer, or ANY other authoritative source of data specifically covering the destruction of yellow metal parts in automotive manual transmissions by GL-5 lubricants?

Incidentally, what "Exon/Mobil" lab location does your chemist friend work at? Is it in the So Cal area?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,160 Posts
Re: Manual Gear & Differential Oils

I did a pretty extensive web search yesterday before I posted my request for "authoritative" data, and the page by the Corviar enthusiast was one of the first to pop up on a Google search. This happens to be the same page you provided a link to.

However, the author (Mr. Widman) appears to be a Corvair enthusiast, repeating what he picked up from various sources. Nowhere in Mr. Widman's writeup does he indicate he has any qualifications as a petroleum chemist, tribology engineer, automotive powertrain engineer, etc. No data from any authoritative sources, just Mr. Widman's personal opinions. His assertions that GL-5 oil somehow "peels" material (his words) off of synchro rings are just assertions, ZERO data is provided. Mr. Widman has written other papers covering lubricants and lubrication of Corvair engines, and they appear to be well written and easily understood. I'm not saying that they are inaccurate or untrue, they are just not backed up by links to authoritative sources.

This "gear oil eats brass parts" discussion has come up many times in many different automotive forums. Despite all the talk, I was not able to come up with any specific data from any authoritative sources.

In a Mercedes Unimog forum I did come across some "talk" about early versions of unbuffered GL-5 lubricants causing discoloration of yellow metals at temperatures above 250F, but again this was just an assertion with no data or source attribution. If the gear oil in your manual transmission FJ ever reaches 250F, you've got bigger problems to worry about than discoloration of yellow metals.

So, the challenge is still open: can anyone find ANY SAE test report, a TSB from ANY auto manufacturer, a technical bulletin from ANY lubricant manufacturer, or ANY other authoritative source of data specifically covering the destruction of yellow metal parts in automotive manual transmissions by GL-5 lubricants?

Incidentally, what "Exon/Mobil" lab location does your chemist friend work at? Is it in the So Cal area?

He was telling me that he does agree with the author regardless of his affiliation with that particular vehicle. He lives in Texas Baytown and he has a Phd in chemical engaging. And I would never ever doubt his opinion.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,458 Posts
Re: Manual Gear & Differential Oils

And in my opinion, getting 248,000 miles out of a manual transmission (including the "soft" brass & bronze parts like synchros, bushings, etc.) would seem like a pretty good service life.
I beg to differ with you on this (snip) [/QUOTE]


This is what I found during the course of assisting my brother- in law during his Manual tranny issue. My lesson from the all this was to stick to the owners manual when it comes to type of fluid or pay the price in the long term. If GL-5 fluid was compatible in GL-4 requirements, Manufacturer would list that in the owners manual not specifically say GL-4
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,169 Posts
I had a link that I ran across when my son was having trans troubles with his 5 speed XJ.
Chrysler/Jeep stated NOT to use any GL-5 lube in their vehicles due to it being hard on the yellow metals in the transmission.

I don't know what the syncros in the FJ trans are made of, but after having the Jeep trans rebuilt because the syncos were badly worn at 180K it's just as easy to use a different lube as take the chance.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,458 Posts
I had a link that I ran across when my son was having trans troubles with his 5 speed XJ.
Chrysler/Jeep stated NOT to use any GL-5 lube in their vehicles due to it being hard on the yellow metals in the transmission.

I don't know what the syncros in the FJ trans are made of, but after having the Jeep trans rebuilt because the syncos were badly worn at 180K it's just as easy to use a different lube as take the chance.
feel the same way after my bother -in laws experience with his path finder.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,129 Posts
One little tidbit of information: every FJ Cruiser Owner's Manual from 2007 to 2013 recommends "75W-90 GL-4 or GL-5" for the manual transmission lubricant.

The 2014 Owner's Manual recommends 75W-90 GL-4: typo, or actual change of specification?
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top