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Closure is simpler....but all it means is that the trouble makers and their mess will move to a new area to destroy.

Sean
X2...exactly!
 

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As a side note Sean, I hope we will see you at the 4 Peaks Cleanup Feb 7th, there is a thread here and many other forums referencing it. Many people look up to you and dig your buggy, it would really help to have you there.

Now back to our discussion:
Sean you make 2 statements that it would help if you clarify...
1) is that you think there should be better management
2) is that you are ok with under/lack of funding since that means less closure

You can't have better management without proper funding.
Education really should not be an issue. We are talking about kindergarden level stuff here:
1) Don't leave trash
2) Put out your fire
3) Stay on the trail (ok that one maybe people need more info to understand how fragile desert pavement, crypobateric soil, alpine tundra and other areas are)

Enforcement would be a much better solution, just like in the urban areas. People leave trash when no one is watching and when you can't get caught.
We need patrols, tickets, crazy high fines, 800 phone numbers and radio freq the average person can use to give lic plates and descriptions. We need permits and fees to cover cost for all this.
The land might be public but the money to manage it has to come from somewhere.

I am fine with the fact that on the Camino del Diablo there is a permit required with a video so that each user understands the impact. And I am fine that Border Patrol looks at that permit to make sure you aren't working with illegals or drugs.

I am fine with the fact that Bulldog canyon has a gate and you have to get the codes.

I have seen the damage to the Gillete ruins, Siboney Mansion and other historic sites, limiting access keeps the lazy idiot out.

I have my Arizona State Trust Land Permit and gladly paid the fee.

I am happy to pay the annual Red Rock Pass cost for Sedona.

The "Don't Mess with Texas" slogan came out of an anti-liter effort along with heafty fines.

Maybe we need a "Don't Trash Arizona" campaign that would included big fines, 800 number (use your camera phone to send a pic), more patrols and yes even some closure so people see that if you don't take care of things then you loose them.

Oh and one last thing....management starts with ourselves. Our time at cleanups, our conversation with other land users, our phone calls and emails and letters, our time at public meetings....we have to put in the effort to show that this has value and that we care.
 

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As a side note Sean, I hope we will see you at the 4 Peaks Cleanup Feb 7th, there is a thread here and many other forums referencing it. Many people look up to you and dig your buggy, it would really help to have you there.

Now back to our discussion:
Sean you make 2 statements that it would help if you clarify...
1) is that you think there should be better management
2) is that you are ok with under/lack of funding since that means less closure

You can't have better management without proper funding.
Education really should not be an issue. We are talking about kindergarden level stuff here:
1) Don't leave trash
2) Put out your fire
3) Stay on the trail (ok that one maybe people need more info to understand how fragile desert pavement, crypobateric soil, alpine tundra and other areas are)

Enforcement would be a much better solution, just like in the urban areas. People leave trash when no one is watching and when you can't get caught.
We need patrols, tickets, crazy high fines, 800 phone numbers and radio freq the average person can use to give lic plates and descriptions. We need permits and fees to cover cost for all this.
The land might be public but the money to manage it has to come from somewhere.

I am fine with the fact that on the Camino del Diablo there is a permit required with a video so that each user understands the impact. And I am fine that Border Patrol looks at that permit to make sure you aren't working with illegals or drugs.

I am fine with the fact that Bulldog canyon has a gate and you have to get the codes.

I have seen the damage to the Gillete ruins, Siboney Mansion and other historic sites, limiting access keeps the lazy idiot out.

I have my Arizona State Trust Land Permit and gladly paid the fee.

I am happy to pay the annual Red Rock Pass cost for Sedona.

The "Don't Mess with Texas" slogan came out of an anti-liter effort along with heafty fines.

Maybe we need a "Don't Trash Arizona" campaign that would included big fines, 800 number (use your camera phone to send a pic), more patrols and yes even some closure so people see that if you don't take care of things then you loose them.

Oh and one last thing....management starts with ourselves. Our time at cleanups, our conversation with other land users, our phone calls and emails and letters, our time at public meetings....we have to put in the effort to show that this has value and that we care.


If it's a Saturday....I can't be there......mandatory OT at work, just like tomorrow.

As for points 1&2....certainly you realize that throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away, right? There is HEAVY bureaucracy in the NFS and BLM. Much of that has no value added to the purpose of land management.

There is also quite a clear agenda in both agencies that is vehemently anti-OHV. Most of them will openly tell you at meetings that they are in favor of shutting down offroading completely b/c in their opinions, "it destroys the environment".

What you are proposing is a double edged sword. I am voicing the other side of the coin. The land is public and paid for with public funds. ANYtime you put up a gate and a lock, it's that much easier to just close it off rather than manage it. This philosophy is the prime reason we lost the Jawbreaker trail in FJ.

If you choose to fund NFS and BLM above and beyond what they already get through the OHV gasoline tax, their annual budgets, what they already collect in fees, etc, you risk a situation in which you are funding the very closure of the lands you seek to enjoy.

This is more true on BLM land as the current policy is that areas are open unless posted closed. They simply cannot afford to sign every legal right of way and trail that is in this state.....which, if there is a change in policy will shut down thousands of miles of legitimate rights of way.

What is left open will be even more heavily taxed by OHV use, illegal dumping and shooting.

Closures, ultimately result in the same thing. Movement of the trash and environmental impact from an area already negatively impacted to an area that is either pristine or less impacted.

I think we have a fundamental disconnect in terms of how much government intrusion into our lives we're willing to accept. I strongly believe in the principle that "he who is governed least, is governed best". I know the rebuttal will be, but while I may not be trashing the land, others are and need more 'governing'....I can only respond with the words of George Washington who said, "It will be found an unwise and unjust jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition that he may abuse it."

We are already taxed to use public land. NFS and BLM already have a budget to manage that land. Instead of misappropriating funds like the NFS has done using the OHV education/command post trailer for non-OHV purposes....they should be using the funds in the ways in which those funds were earmarked. There are several such incidents of abuse of power by the agencies in this state.....and far more insidious ones in CA where earmarked OHV funding was used to secure public lands and then the funds got donated to "green" groups who bought that land and closed it to OHV use. Hell, currently the state of CA is actively seeking to take a "budgetary loan" from the OHV fund for the next 2 years b/c of the budget shortfall. So what happens to trail maintenance and upkeep, user education, user services, etc in CA when the money is siphoned off to other state programs? Government bureaucracy is highly inefficient in just about any endeavor it undertakes. This one will be no different.

I don't know....maybe you're right. Maybe enforcement and closures will stem the tide of illegal dumping.....but what I fear will happen is the trails I run that are not trashed, will be closed with the areas that are. I believe what will really happen is the dumping will continue....it'll just happen in new areas, ones that aren't currently being used for that purpose or at times when enforcement is unlikely. The people that are responsible for the destruction will then be pushed onto the areas where I wheel now and turn them into pig styes as well.

I just have a gut feeling we'll be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Also, you mentioned Sibley Mansion....which is WAAAY the hell out of the way of major cities....if there's a trash problem there, what's the logic of your "2 hour drive" theory?

Sean
 

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Wow Sean that is one of your longer post and it brings up some excellent points....the following are general statements...

It is funny that as we look at a problem we have to back up to something else and then again and again...
trash due to lack of enforcement due to lack of money due to misspent money due to poor management due to.....

I agree with almost eveything you say...
I normally against big gov...but that req a population that takes responsibilty and self moderates behavior.

I am against the misuse of funds you talk about and agree that the misuse of resources screws us. So I write letters, make phone calls and complain as a taxpayer.

I don't want to see area's closed that have roads in them and I don't want to see areas opened just because morons trashed what they had & it was closed. So I cleanup trash, write letters and go to meeetings.

I would rather keep the destruction where it already is...and not give the yahoo's new playgrounds. So if an area has no road in it I voice my thoughts to keep it that way to land managers & congressmen.

I guess my main & primary point is that all this interenet talk is worthless without action...
Letters, emails, phone calls, attendance at meetings....all that can go towards fixing much of the problem..
Misuse of funds..call them on it, call a newspaper, email your friends
Misuse of resources....write a letter, call them, tell a reporter (investigative type thing)
Trash on the trail...put together a cleanup, tell those you meet in the outdoors, tell the land managers what you are doing....

These are public lands and we have a responsiblity to do our part. If you don't speak up, help out, do something then you can't complain when it is gone.
Kind of like voting, don't complain about your gov if you don't vote.

We all share responsibility for the state of our nation if we do nothing to change it, lead by example, actions speak louder than words and all those other things that sound cheesy but are still true.

Again as a side note Sean...yes the Cleanup is on a Sat but Az Game & Fish has something going on Sunday of that weekend. And sorry you have mandatory OT! But sierraexpeditions.com has a place you can donate to suport the effort. Tim pays for most of this out of his own pocket.
 

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I agree with everything you wrote above.

It's definitely a convoluted issue.....no doubt. I've been where you are at this point....very active trying to work within the system to bring about positive change and found that it just doesn't seem to get anywhere. I've backed off a lot after repeatedly helping BLM with clean ups, planning, comment periods, signage, trail maintainence, RMPs, EAs, route mapping, opening trails, ride alongs, etc. with assurances that trails would remain protected and open......only to have those assurances turn to complete out and out lies and have the areas we worked so hard on be closed for stupid things such as the rule that 50 objects that are 50 years or older constitute a "historical artifact site" and require special permits/EAs/protection.....yes, that can even include 50 year old nuts and bolts from an old mine. Stupid? Hell yes. Part of the bureaucracy? Definitely.

I hope you don't find that same thing out. Many of us involved in this process for 10 years or more have come up with "other" solutions which I cannot discuss on an open forum, but I wish you the best with your endeavors.

As for the mandatory OT.....I'm just glad to have a job right now. I'm definitely not complaining in this economy.

I'm off the Friday before the clean up. If I can talk work into it, I'm gonna see about switching days so I can make the Saturday clean up.

Take care,
Sean
 

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Interesting post on VJC from LAST NIGHT about Butcher Jones (Coves) and the gated Bulldog Canyon area.....places BEGGING for a closure.

Here's the problem:

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Just got back. Gotta say The forest ranger needs to get out and do his job.
First thing I see when I get to the elsworth gate is cars and suv's stacked up and trains of people going under the gate. About 50 yards in past the gate they have this HUGE fire roaring up to 30' in the air and young ones throwing stuff in it to make huge sparks fly in the air. underage drinking, and the sad thing is there was an adoult with another female adult who didnt seems to give much of a crap. Next this you know this articat comes flyin by and runs over a no tresspassing sign and starts runnin up a horse trail.
get about half way through the canyon and a couple teenagers on quads quick shut sown their bikes and hide as we come rolling by. HMMMMMM.!!????
about a 100 yards from ther is what looks like their camp. with about 50+ teen age kids hanging out drinking in a circle of about 6- 8 passanger vans and other cars that shouldnt be down in the canyon! Go over to The jones and there was so many enforcement and fire officers we just turned around.



What a night. came to the desert to escape. saw only one coyote. 3 bats and a Whasp!

Goin out tomorrow morning to clean up after them
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Sean
 

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Interesting post on VJC from LAST NIGHT about Butcher Jones (Coves) and the gated Bulldog Canyon area.....places BEGGING for a closure.

Here's the problem:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just got back. Gotta say The forest ranger needs to get out and do his job.
First thing I see when I get to the elsworth gate is cars and suv's stacked up and trains of people going under the gate. About 50 yards in past the gate they have this HUGE fire roaring up to 30' in the air and young ones throwing stuff in it to make huge sparks fly in the air. underage drinking, and the sad thing is there was an adoult with another female adult who didnt seems to give much of a crap. Next this you know this articat comes flyin by and runs over a no tresspassing sign and starts runnin up a horse trail.
get about half way through the canyon and a couple teenagers on quads quick shut sown their bikes and hide as we come rolling by. HMMMMMM.!!????
about a 100 yards from ther is what looks like their camp. with about 50+ teen age kids hanging out drinking in a circle of about 6- 8 passanger vans and other cars that shouldnt be down in the canyon! Go over to The jones and there was so many enforcement and fire officers we just turned around.



What a night. came to the desert to escape. saw only one coyote. 3 bats and a Whasp!

Goin out tomorrow morning to clean up after them
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sean
That makes me sick just reading it. Because you KNOW that there was a huge mess this morning. And probably 50+ drunk drivers out on that road going home. :(

M
 

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All I can say is EXPECT more crap like THIS to happen in the next TWO(at least) years. That's when people will HAVE to get up off of their arses and vote the Dem's out of the house and Senate. Let's all just hope that they don't cause too much damage before we get them out. The people of this country have no idea of what they have done this last election cycle.:flame:
 

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No, Sean, we don't wonder. We're pretty darned sure this is just one example. :rolleyes: It's sad, isn't it?

M
 

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Also, let's not forget the thread titled "THIS is how to drive!" Another knuckle head trying to get things closed with "Mad driving skills".
Hadn't looked at that one.....

Sean
 

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Make that "Here is how to drive":flame:
 

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Just watched it.....

I respectfully disagree with you on that one, not because you're wrong, but b/c we simply don't have enough information to make an informed judgement.

Having been involved in a few competitions myself, I understand the permit procedure.

Simply put, we don't know if this was a sanctioned event or not, but my guess (just from a liability standpoint) is that it probably was.

While driving like that is pretty dumb (I don't know how he didn't break an axle or worse)....it doesn't really get areas shut down provided it was a sanctioned event.

In fact, I see guys doing big smokey burnouts trying to get up huge waterfalls here.....doesn't get trails closed, but it does break a lot of ****.

The thing we just don't know from that video is whether or not where they were wheeling was legal and if the competition was approved by a governing authority. Hell, we don't know that it wasn't held on private property (like an OHV park) with their approval.

I'll withhold judgement about it until we find out differently.

JMO,
Sean
 
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