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Great thread. Great that it's sticked. I have only been wheeling for a few years and I got to say I've seen a lot of sketchy recoveries. I wish more people would be precautionary when recovering their vehicles and threads like this can help

Louisana Land Krewesers
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Added to Post 1.

Shackles: Everything you wanted to know and some stuff you don't.
The meat of this safety webinar runs from the 3min to 30min mark. 3min to 14:30 covers shackle construction materials. 14:30min to 17min covers inspection. 17min to 30min covers proper rigging. This should allow everyone a better way to view the video in pieces as time allows. Everything after the 30min mark is Q&A. Granted the discussion is mostly oriented toward lifting, IMO the information translates well to the winching community.
Safety Webinar: Proper Use of Shackles
Clamps, Hooks, Shackles, Chain, Slings, Towing, | CMCO
 

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Sweptwingnut - that shackle video is a great resource. If you looking in the hoisting and lifting industries you will find a lot of additional good resources for information. They are by far the most developed and restrictive. Offroad is relaxed to say the least in comparison.

For example in oil and gas offshore operations we have a lift plan which is generated for each piece of equipment which we plan to lift off the deck of a vessel. It is reviewed by EVERYONE that is involved in the operation. During the operation anyone who is around has the right to stop the work/lift if they are unsure or concerned about anything -whether its the first day on the job or their 40th year of work...take the time to do it right rather than put someone or something at risk.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
I see a lot of info referencing the connecting points should be no less than equal to the rating of the rope. Preferably stronger. So, is the idea that it is better to break a rope (wire or synthetic) than break a connecting point that could become a missile if it fails?
 

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Yes that should be the case. Rather have the rope, sling, wire, etc fail than the equipment ripping itself apart.

Another thing that should be mentioned is how offroad equipment is actually "rated" for service? To my knowledge and unless something changed recently there isn't any governing body which certifies any of the offroad equipment/winch lines. Additionally I haven't seen much in the way of standard test procedures which there are supposed to be qualified to. So essentially there are limited to no controls on what you see as "advertised" ratings on offroad stuff. Granted several of these mfgs do produce products for other industries which have stringent test specifications, so not all are fudging numbers. That is why I refferenced other industry standards in my previous posts since in other industries each sling, rope, etc needs to be qualified/tested and comes with a mfgs certificate outlining that it has been qualified for use. Keep in mind in the lifting industry the qualification is usually only good for one year and then has to be re certified annually (slings, lines, lifting points, etc.). If there was more oversight in the offroad community it would definitely help promote a safer environment.
 

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^^^ that's why I don't trust the $12 smittybilt shackles... I'm pretty sure they're cast iron, which brings a whole extra level of failure options... And their "rating" is kinda arbitrary, IMO.
If you look in the chains & ropes section of McMaster Carr, there is a HUGE difference in cost between "rated for lifting" and "not rated for lifting"....
Ultimately, Safety costs money.


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free doodoo App
 

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Discussion Starter #48
:bigthumb:

I think I will toss these I picked up at the Farm store in the back to be used as a light duty or spare only. They are 3/4 galvanized and stamped 4.7ton but there is zero manufacturer information and galvanizing is majorly crude. Stamped 'made in china.' :| Maybe I will run across a stuck jeep that needs one... :grin J/K

I ordered up some of these TJM forged steel 19mm shackles instead. TJM Bow Shackle
 

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Discussion Starter #49
...
Another thing that should be mentioned is how offroad equipment is actually "rated" for service? To my knowledge and unless something changed recently there isn't any governing body which certifies any of the offroad equipment/winch lines.....
I am beginning to see what you mean.

After doing some more homework on a handful of off-road names, I see that many, if not all, off road companies (Warn, ARB, TJM, and Smittybilt to name the ones I have researched) have their shackles produced in china and are technically not "rated" by any regulatory standard beyond the promise stated by the company itself. If anyone is going to be purchasing along these lines then it may be worthy to note that forged steel (Warn premium and TJM) is generally stronger than cast steel (smittybilt) and forged offers additional anti-corrosion benefits due to the lack of any voids that exist in traditional castings. Interestingly enough, I wasn't able to find the composition of the ARB shackle (cast or forged).
The Difference Between Casting & Forging

If the confidence of a regulated rating certified to actually meet the standard stamped on the shackle is a priority then, as FJNewb has previously suggested, overhead / lifting rigging companies is where everyone will need to look. Here are a couple of certified 3/4 pin bow shackles that meet various regulatory standards for comparison.

Working load limit (WLL) 5 ton (4.5:1 safety factor), Forged Alloy Steel – Quenched and Tempered, with alloy pins $27.99
Crosby G-209A Series Forged Alloy Anchor Shackle - 5/8"
http://www.defender.com/pdf/002082.pdf

WLL 4.75 ton (9500lb.) (5:1 safety factor), Forged- quenched and tempered, with alloy pins $29.86
1018507 Screw Pin Anchor Shackle - Capacity 9,500 lbs - Chain Size - 3

FWIW,
The shackle from the local farm implement store will go back. Once I was home and able to actually read the fine print on the tag, it stated "do not use for overhead lifting, support of human weight, athletic or playground equipment, or where safety is a factor" :surprise Lesson learned.
 

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The hitch pin use in Mad Matt's video is not a great option... note that pin ratings are likely for shearing in a standard application, so that rating is meaningless in how Matt used it. Use a good hitch d-shackle mount + rated d-shackle instead.

Here's what can happen:

Also shows why use of a damper is important. Also, shows them trying to drive off a hi-lift. Yikes.
 

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So say a guy had a 24,000 pound snatch strap and 4 3/4 ton shackles. Is this a bad combo? Even with the elasticity factor?

Also What do you think the stock trailer hitch on an FJ is rated at? Can I pull people out of a mudhole with my Warn 2 inch trailer hitch shackle safely?

 

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So say a guy had a 24,000 pound snatch strap and 4 3/4 ton shackles. Is this a bad combo? Even with the elasticity factor?

Also What do you think the stock trailer hitch on an FJ is rated at? Can I pull people out of a mudhole with my Warn 2 inch trailer hitch shackle safely?

Add a dampener to the recovery strap and I think you are about as safe as you can get (with a recovery strap). Unlike Mad Matt's video, you are using a hitch recovery bracket. While you are still relying on a pin holding the bracket in place, you are using the pin as designed. It has to shear to fail. In Matt's setup, he put the strap directly around the pin. That's not a good idea as it's no longer a shear strength issue but a tensile strength issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
So say a guy had a 24,000 pound snatch strap and 4 3/4 ton shackles. Is this a bad combo? Even with the elasticity factor?

Also What do you think the stock trailer hitch on an FJ is rated at? Can I pull people out of a mudhole with my Warn 2 inch trailer hitch shackle safely?

As FJNewb has already schooled us, the off-road community is pretty unregulated regarding what these 'ratings' for shackles and straps actually mean. While this is not a bad setup, I am going to go out on a limb and say this is not an "ideal" setup for the FJCruiser and agree with CVKurt's suggestion that a recovery damper will help mitigate your risks. Not intending to be a nagging nelly but solely for keeping with the purpose of increasing education and awareness, I don't think the setup you described is as safe as you can get.

Regarding snatch straps: According to BushRanger LINK in Australia, recovery straps should ideally be rated at 2-3 times the Gross Vehicle Mass. Recovery straps are designed to stretch up to 20% to obtain the correct amount of kinetic energy to "snatch" a vehicle free. BushRanger goes on to state the life of the strap is up to 10 vehicle recoveries or per their safety/inspection instructions. ARB does not make that statement that I have found. Since the FJ Cruiser is roughly a 4-5000lb vehicle this requires a Recovery strap in the 8-15,000lb rating range. I think the ARB705 is a better match for our vehicles with it's 8t / 17,500lb rated minimum break strength.

It is my understanding that a 24,000lb recovery strap (such as the ARB710US) is considered a "heavy" recovery strap. The 24,000lb rating is a minimum breakage value and this value can easily exceed the working load limit of a standard 4.75t bow shackle and possibly it's 4:1 safety factor in some cases. Also, the heavy rated recovery strap may not allow the proper amount of 20% stretch for our roughly 5x smaller vehicle size. This ultimately places a greater load on the recovery points and vehicle itself due to less 'give' and increased shock from jerking on the strap during the recovery.

Some thoughts to consider:
1. There are very few SUV style vehicles that have a 24,000lb rated winch (even when adding a snatch block pulley to smaller winches) so, honestly, when would a 24,000lb recovery strap be prudent?? Note to self: I am guilty of having a 21,000lb recovery strap and need to figure out it's intention for my overlanding plans.
2. It is generally considered ideal to design a recovery system such that the strap or rope will fail first. The idea being to minimize the chance of breaking an attachment point and causing it to become a lethal missile or damaging the vehicle. Mad Matt's video that CVKurt shared is a pretty good example of this bad idea and just proves the point for a lower rated Recovery strap and/or better rated (and properly used) attachment points.

Regarding OEM hitch: Class III hitch, Six attachment points, 500lb tongue weight / 5000lb gross tow weight rating. I would not go hog wild but I think you are ok pulling people out with more appropriately sized recovery gear. Hopefully the rest of the information here will help give you some ideas.

Regarding shackles: Some manufacturers state the safety factor, some don't. Some offer a warranty period, some don't. Some disclose how their shackles are made, some don't. Some are regulated to meet gov't standard, some are not. The better rigging manufactures regulated for overhead lifting are much clearer on these details and much safer to use.

Most of the regulated/rated for overhead lifting Recovery shackles are manufactured with a stated 4:1 or 5:1 safety factor. This puts a 3/4", 4.75t shackle at an ultimate fail somewhere between 19-25 tones depending upon manufacturer. Differences in cast vs. forged vs. forged/tempered will shed considerable light when deciding what to buy from whom. But the point is this: a 24,000lb minimum break strength Recovery strap can easily exceed both inferior rigging and our vehicles design if you are not judicious.

Hence the emphasis of doing a little homework so you can make a fully informed choice. I can attest that price is not the best indicator. Case in point, I paid a little over 8$ for the forged steel TJM Bow shackle in my previous post vs. 13$ for the cast steel Koch Farm implement shackle from my local Big R farm store. Considering both are unrated for overhead lifting and therefore not regulated to meet the higher gov't standards, the forged one is a better choice. Forging aligns the grain and eliminates any voids in the material that could contribute to weakness. So, this is proof in the pudding for me that you don't necessarily get what you pay for when you don't know any different.

My ultimate plan is to have something like these regulated Crosby 209A 5.00T shackles (1017516) as standard equipment. These are the ones with the 3/4 size screw pin. https://www.amazon.com/Crosby-5-00Ta-Anchor-Shackle-1017516/dp/B00B0XV8BG/ref=sr_1_1?srs=9371277011&ie=UTF8&qid=1468566616&sr=8-1&keywords=1017516

Spec sheet: Crosby® 209A Alloy Screw Pin Anchor Shackles - The Crosby Group

I will upgrade my current TJM shackles at some point in the future and use them as a spare set as long as they remain in serviceable condition.

Learn about your gear, buy what you can afford, inspect it often, upgrade what you can as soon as you can, and in the meantime proceed with caution. :cheers:
 

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This is all starting to make sense to me thanks to you guys and your recovery wisdom. Generally speaking bigger and stronger is safer and that was my thinking behind the 24,000 pound strap. But logically it makes sense that this is actually unsafe when you consider what you want to fail first. It is not my shackle or my trailer hitch, it is indeed the strap.
 

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:bigthumb:

I notice that Smittybilt rates this device as a 10,000lb "TOW" strap point. Not sure if their intention qualifies as a "RECOVERY" point. Or even if the semantics makes a difference.

In either case, this is a good demonstration on multiple approved methods to attach a TOW strap to the Smittybilt Beaver Step. Updated Post 1 accordingly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gngAd9cXzlA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2LzLkVyBwQ
Yeah, I trust my eyes over semantics....

The thing weighs durn near 10lb, and it's advertised as forged (rather than cast). The flash line around the edge matches what a forging would come out like, so I trust that statement.
That being said, as a mechanical engineer, my official estimation is you could swing your truck in circles over your head by this thing.....
Assuming you had a stout enough hitch pin.
So do you guys feel this would be something safe to connect other items to besides just a snatch or tow strap? Like shackles and whatnot?
 

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Discussion Starter #58
I don't feel that would be safe.

The way the beaver step is designed, care should be taken to ensure items attached do not shift. Hence, the straps referenced in the videos are securely fastened to where they will not shift. Shackles need a rigid attach point for proper strength and the beaver step would not hold the shackle properly which could compromise its capacity rating. Besides, a shackle would have to be mounted vertical and that would put a twist in the rope attached to the shackle. Twists are bad juju.
 

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I don't feel that would be safe.

The way the beaver step is designed, care should be taken to ensure items attached do not shift. Hence, the straps referenced in the videos are securely fastened to where they will not shift. Shackles need a rigid attach point for proper strength and the beaver step would not hold the shackle properly which could compromise its capacity rating. Besides, a shackle would have to be mounted vertical and that would put a twist in the rope attached to the shackle. Twists are bad juju.
It seemed like the shackle could be mounted in the center hole (tip of the pointed arrow) which wouldn't allow for any slippage. Also, connecting a shackle vertically is the only option when using the front 2 recovery points on our FJ, so it must be able to be done. No?

 

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Discussion Starter #60
I believe the best advice on the recovery points would be to review the safety video in post one (it is the first video) from the 17-30 minute mark. Specifically the 21:37 mark and the 25:40 mark.

I believe you will then see the importance of properly mounted shackles and the pitfalls of the shackles in your photo. Not saying you "can not" do it, but that there are disadvantages. Side loading is a big deal and using a shackle in such a way that allows it to flop around and potentially side load only serves to reduce the capacity of your equipment. So here is a question, just what is the load rating of the metal ring attached to the frame of the FJ? For that matter, what is the load rating of the trailer hitch itself on the FJ?

Also keep in mind that every manufacture of recovery straps state to avoid kinks and twists. A half twist from a vertical attachment point to a horizontal attachment point, again, reduces the capacity of your recovery strap as a twisting load reduces the straight line load limit. (third bullet, post 1)
 
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