Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum banner

21 - 31 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
MoabRat said:
So are the stock bushings difficult to remove, since we can't apparently buy them separately. Not sure what you mean by the articulated arms not being street legal. They are about all you can buy for a Jeep these days and there are probably only 5 or 6 hundred thousand of them on the road as daily drivers. I had Tera arms in my TJ and never had any troubles with the law. The articulated arms actually improved ride quality and allowed adjustment of the rear axle to compensate for transfer case/driveshaft angle problems.
You will need a press to remove and install them. We are wokring on having the bushings available very soon so you may not have to worry about it at all. Unfortunately I am a Toyota guy, always have been, and always will be. My knowledge of Jeep parts and Jeeps in general is horrible, I wasnt aware that so many people run these types of arms on everyday vehicles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
I have been searching all over today to try and find the truth behind the street legality of spherical ends. Although I still have not come up with any sort of governed document, I found this on All-Pro's website.

"Note: Spherical rod ends are not legal for use on the street in some states."

You can see it at the following link:
http://www.allprooffroad.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=17

Sorry to come off like I am attacking All-Pro, I really like their company and the products they produce. If someone at All-pro happens to read this I hope that they will not take it the wrong way. Over the years I have sent countless numbers of customers their way for various different products.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
619 Posts
Steve-o said:
This is my main argument on adjustable arms. Long driveshaft vehicles with minimal lift dont really benifit from adjustable arms.

Johnny joints help eliminate deflection, which is the main goal of a rotating rod end, but unless other modifications have been done to the car, your really not gaining any added articulation either. What you are doing is allowing the arms to articulate with less resistance.
Agreed - I build (excuse the pun) on the premise that the rig will get better all of the time ( constantly improving). Both of my Rubi's ran RE super flex joints. And reduced binding is important.
THe other arms are only Jonny on one end. I am looking for arms for the FJ that have a joint on both. The FJ has pretty decent rear articulation (need improvement in the front big time) but can later be built with a disco'd rear and triangulated. This would be much easier with a set of arms with Jonny's on each end from the get go.
For the majority of wheelers on here( no flaming please) <3" lift = no need especially if that is all they are going to do to it.
Bigger isn't always badder but flex is key in my book.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,985 Posts
4RnrJ said:
Well that's taking what he said out of context, don't you think?

I don't think that he thinks we are dumb. Just in general, things loosen, and for the most part, people are going to throw the arms on and not come back to check on them. I think it is safe to assume that only the most hardcore FJ offroader will actually experiment with different arm lengths, and the adjustability isn't needed for most applications.
I guess I don't think it's out of context at all. He said it's hard to get them to the right length. It's not. He must assume that most folks wouldn't bother to check. That's thinking his customer base is dumb. You don't have to agree, it's just my opinion.

In regards to the need for adjustability. It's not just the advantage of being able to change the length of the arm. It's also all about having an additional axis for the arm to turn (flex). If this were a real point of debate there would be many non-adjustable arms available in the jeep world. There are not.

A much more useful product would be a universal sleeve for the stock arms to give them additional strength, at half the price of these.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,985 Posts
"But on the other hand, if you are going to compare the stock with an adjustable before you install them than what do you need them to be adjustable for? Out of all of the new FJ's on the road I am willing to bet there is an extremely low number of rigs that would actually *need* their arms adjustable. Even then the only one you really need to be adjustable are the upper arms. Adjusting the lower arms for re-locating the axle is only needed with pretty tall lifts."

You compare to establish a base length. You then count equal adjustment turns on each arm. Comparing them to stock to establish a base length does not mean you leave them there. As far as lift height goes it will be a year or so before we see definitive results on the transfer case with the increased driveline angles. I agree that 2 or 3 inches should be ok with the longer driveshaft, but if you look at the Jeep's development track, everyone was at that height to start. Now it's hard to find a good system under 4 inches and most are long arm kits of 4-6 inches. It's a natural evolution and will happen to the FJ as well. So if I'm going to spend money on arms now I want:

Adjustability for the future and better flex
Flex joints for the same reasons
thickness and strength

Foresight from the manufacturer. You could offer a decent arm with ends at the same price you know, and corner the market.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
619 Posts
MoabRat said:
"But on the other hand, if you are going to compare the stock with an adjustable before you install them than what do you need them to be adjustable for? Out of all of the new FJ's on the road I am willing to bet there is an extremely low number of rigs that would actually *need* their arms adjustable. Even then the only one you really need to be adjustable are the upper arms. Adjusting the lower arms for re-locating the axle is only needed with pretty tall lifts."

You compare to establish a base length. You then count equal adjustment turns on each arm. Comparing them to stock to establish a base length does not mean you leave them there. As far as lift height goes it will be a year or so before we see definitive results on the transfer case with the increased driveline angles. I agree that 2 or 3 inches should be ok with the longer driveshaft, but if you look at the Jeep's development track, everyone was at that height to start. Now it's hard to find a good system under 4 inches and most are long arm kits of 4-6 inches. It's a natural evolution and will happen to the FJ as well. So if I'm going to spend money on arms now I want:

Adjustability for the future and better flex
Flex joints for the same reasons
thickness and strength

Foresight from the manufacturer. You could offer a decent arm with ends at the same price you know, and corner the market.
THe overwhelming majority of ( I assume you are talking TJ) lifts are under 5.5"
Once you go over that, you are talking LA.
I don't see the FJ getting that big with IFS or the rear Diff size.
THe DS on a jeep is less than 2 Ft long ( much less) the Fj is a few feet long and it appears that the drive line was built to lift it.
Even the CV angles aren't straight until you get to 3" of lift.
I don't think the T case will be an issue nobody has rear vibe issues witht he 3" lifts so the Pinion must be ok.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,985 Posts
Damageinc said:
THe overwhelming majority of ( I assume you are talking TJ) lifts are under 5.5"
Once you go over that, you are talking LA.
I don't see the FJ getting that big with IFS or the rear Diff size.
THe DS on a jeep is less than 2 Ft long ( much less) the Fj is a few feet long and it appears that the drive line was built to lift it.
Even the CV angles aren't straight until you get to 3" of lift.
I don't think the T case will be an issue nobody has rear vibe issues witht he 3" lifts so the Pinion must be ok.
Boy I sure agree with that. Once you get a TJ up over 4 inches it is really not very streetable. From 2 or 3 inches up you definitly get shake without adjusting control arms and/or doing a slip yoke conversion on the tcase. I am sure interested in the "built to lift it" stuff you said. I think the Pinion is ok with 3 inches or lower on the FJ. What I'm curious about is what you said about the CV angles. Could you explain more what you mean? I've heard so many different and mostly uneducated opinions on the CV joints. I would think the optimum angle would be unflexed and at factory height. Why did Toyota design them for a height that the vehicle is not "supposed" to be at?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
Steve-o said:
I have been searching all over today to try and find the truth behind the street legality of spherical ends. Although I still have not come up with any sort of governed document, I found this on All-Pro's website.

"Note: Spherical rod ends are not legal for use on the street in some states."

You can see it at the following link:
http://www.allprooffroad.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=17

Sorry to come off like I am attacking All-Pro, I really like their company and the products they produce. If someone at All-pro happens to read this I hope that they will not take it the wrong way. Over the years I have sent countless numbers of customers their way for various different products.
The spherical rod ends you are referencing on our site are for steering systems for rockcrawlers. They are not Johnny Joints. The Johnny Joints we use on our link kits are the same ones used on our Tacoma solid axle swap kit and on most major manufacturers suspension systems. They eliminate the binding of factory hard rubber bushings, they are easy to service or replace, (ever try to remove a factory bushing without destroying it), they are adjustable to recenter your axle after lifting or when you change to a taller lift. Our upper link kit will be available next week. They are adustable to allow you to adjust pinion angle after lifting.
Nothing against Man-a-Fre but They need to come out with a finished product with bushings installed because you cannot remove the stock ones without ruining them and bushings are not available from the dealer, you have to buy the whole arm!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
JonB said:
The spherical rod ends you are referencing on our site are for steering systems for rockcrawlers. They are not Johnny Joints. The Johnny Joints we use on our link kits are the same ones used on our Tacoma solid axle swap kit and on most major manufacturers suspension systems. They eliminate the binding of factory hard rubber bushings, they are easy to service or replace, (ever try to remove a factory bushing without destroying it), they are adjustable to recenter your axle after lifting or when you change to a taller lift. Our upper link kit will be available next week. They are adustable to allow you to adjust pinion angle after lifting.
Nothing against Man-a-Fre but They need to come out with a finished product with bushings installed because you cannot remove the stock ones without ruining them and bushings are not available from the dealer, you have to buy the whole arm!
So are Johnny Joints street legal in all 50 States? I am still uncertain of this.

You and I both know that factory bushings dont cause any sort of binding. Putting a spherical end on one side of the arm will allow more than enough rotation for what these suspension need. Putting rotating joints on both ends is pretty much useless, I believe you would have put a factory bushing at one end if they were available. Rock buggies and off-road use only vehicles may run double sphericals, but what percentage of FJ Cruisers are either of these.

I dont think we have ever had a problem removing factory bushings, with the right press ring size it shouldnt be a problem. We are however working on providing the arms with factory bushings. We should also have control arms with factory bushings at one end and sphericals at the other for the people who are interested in that as well.

So on a final note, I admire your work and your company. I really hate when rival vendors get in arguments for the public to see and I hope that everyone understands that one persons outlook on the way a product should be made will most certainly be different than anothers. I really mean it when I say that I dont want to have any bad feelings about this whole thing.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,985 Posts
Steve-o said:
So are Johnny Joints street legal in all 50 States? I am still uncertain of this.

You and I both know that factory bushings dont cause any sort of binding. Putting a spherical end on one side of the arm will allow more than enough rotation for what these suspension need. Putting rotating joints on both ends is pretty much useless, I believe you would have put a factory bushing at one end if they were available. Rock buggies and off-road use only vehicles may run double sphericals, but what percentage of FJ Cruisers are either of these.

I don't think we have ever had a problem removing factory bushings, with the right press ring size it shouldn't be a problem. We are however working on providing the arms with factory bushings. We should also have control arms with factory bushings at one end and sphericals at the other for the people who are interested in that as well.

So on a final note, I admire your work and your company. I really hate when rival vendors get in arguments for the public to see and I hope that everyone understands that one persons outlook on the way a product should be made will most certainly be different than anothers. I really mean it when I say that I dont want to have any bad feelings about this whole thing.
I think it's beneficial to all customers to hear a debate between vendors. You are both keeping it social, civil, and reasoned. As long as it's not just dirty laundry I think all of us gain from a design debate. I stand by what I said, come out with a good, feature rich, AFFORDABLE arm (such as the pricing you came out with for this unfinished thing) and you will corner the market. You have several times in this thread misunderstood your customer base. Just being on this forum shows an advanced interest and more hard core knowledge of the FJ. This crowd is much more likely to be a wrench turning, modding crowd than you think. As the FJ matures more and more hard core owners will be buying rock crawling parts. Just wait until after the ultimate FJ competes. Get ahead of the curve. Thanks for listening.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
619 Posts
MoabRat said:
Boy I sure agree with that. Once you get a TJ up over 4 inches it is really not very streetable. From 2 or 3 inches up you definitly get shake without adjusting control arms and/or doing a slip yoke conversion on the tcase. I am sure interested in the "built to lift it" stuff you said. I think the Pinion is ok with 3 inches or lower on the FJ. What I'm curious about is what you said about the CV angles. Could you explain more what you mean? I've heard so many different and mostly uneducated opinions on the CV joints. I would think the optimum angle would be unflexed and at factory height. Why did Toyota design them for a height that the vehicle is not "supposed" to be at?
The Rubicon doesn't need the SYE like other Jeeps due to the larger T case and spacer that it is designed with. It does however need a new drive shaft ( I did a T\W ) and Adjustable CA's to get the driveline back into shape.
If you go over 5.5" you really should work on a LA kit vs the Short Arms to make it streetable.
Mine is a 4.5"+ and might not get bigger ( any taller and it won't fit in my garage ) but it might also. I intend to 3 link the rear at some point and try to have it to be buildable as I go.
As for the CV angles- the FJ actually has the axles i a negative angle before putting a 3" lift on it that puts them very near horizontal- as moth other IFS vehicles are.
I am not sure if this was intentional but it really seems like they were ready to have the vehicle lifted ( maybe bean counters stopped 33's on it like they have done with the Jeeps).
THe Jeeps spedo is right on if you go from the 31's and swap to 33's like I did.
I understand that the Rubicon was originally designed to take 33's ( and could with the sway attached) - maybe the FJ was also the same? I don't know the answer to this.

3" OME lift- the axle is actually straighter than the pics depicts- it is at a bad angle.
 
21 - 31 of 31 Posts
Top