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A recent death of an African American man by a white police Officer has sparked racial tensions in multiple cities across the United States. After being told to leave work early in a downtown area, you are inevitably held over. You can see protesters from the window of your office building while looking below at the street. As your conference call comes to a close, you look at the time, it is now dusk. You turn on the news and are advised that protests are generally peaceful but last night scores of businesses suffered looting and arson attacks as well as violent attacks. A security guard is stationed within the parking garage and advises you, you are one of the last to leave and to stay safe. You get in your car, ensuring the windows and door locks are locked, entering the downtown area.


As you approach a city intersection a group of illegal protesters gather in the center of the street. Chanting at you, "No Justice, No Peace." The crowd gathers around your vehicle, some beginning to rock it side to side.

What do you do?

 

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Discussion Starter #4


Pressured to leave your home by other family members despite warning them that the road is impassable. A trip to your Grandmothers house has left you stranded on the side of the road. You check yourself for injuries but appear to be okay. Your car has quarter tank of gas left in it but continues to die; you figure due to the possible damages from hitting a snow covered icy bank. Multiple other motorists are similar situation up and down the road. You are miles from home, a motorists are attempting to walk the five to ten miles to the nearest exit. 911 dispatchers have advised you that due to the storm and multiple accidents that tow trucks and public safety are not available at this time.

Your cell phone has minimal battery charge left. The car has at least 3-5 inches covering the vehicle. You know that 1-2 feet are expected over the next twenty four hours.

What in your EDC can help you? BOB? What's in your winter kit?

( A 56 year old male was found trapped in his vehicle in New York, froze to death.)

 

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I Have a V-8!! Moderator
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I'd stay with my vehicle, have my cold weather clothes, blankets, and sleeping bags ready to get to and use. I'd probably put up my dune flag for visibility. I'd have my food and water within reach. If the cold was more than the clothes, blankets, and sleeping bag could handle then I may run the Coleman stove for a bit with the windows cracked open. It's a catalytic style. I may use my shovel to clean out around the area of the drivers door at least so I could get out and move around and possibly tie the tarps to the roof rack and what not to make a sort of sheltered area. If in a spot where the possibility of being hit by a vehicle or plow then maybe I'd sacrifice a flashlight and hang it on the vehicle somewhere. I'd try to stay as dry and warm as possible and out of the weather as much as possible.

Below is an explanation of what I have/had in my vehicle over the last few years. I'm trying to organize things a bit different and swap some things for others and adapt things to what I can and can't do now physically. A lot of the stuff will still be the same though.
 

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In winter here the roads can shut down on us for a few hours to a couple of weeks. It may be from wrecks or from slick or drifted roads. I've had several things in my vehicles not only because of these things, but because I spend a great deal of time out exploring in the desert areas even in the winter.

For my vehicle I usually make sure I top off the tank regularly especially if I'm going somewhere. I carried tire chains, extra oil, wipers, wiper fluid, a bottle or two of Heat, some deicer, tools, and recovery gear. I also had a Max-axe tool and a shovel. There was a dune flag and pole that could be attached quickly to help with visibility also. A CB with weather channels for awhile until I had to replace it and then I lost the weather channels.

In the backseat I carried a sleeping bag, a survival bag, a blanket, a food sack, water, a winter clothes bag, extra clothes, boots, shoes, hats, gloves, and some miscellaneous stuff.

The survival bag and a "junk" bag, contained, a space blanket, an emergency space blanket, and emergency sleeping bag, a couple of tarps, matches, a couple of different fire starting tools, a leatherman, a knife, a compass and book/maps, sewing kit, utensils, mess kit, small Esbit stove, a multi-fuel backpacker stove, a multi-fuel lantern, fuel bottles, a Sawvivor folding saw, a couple of folding buckets, a big roll of 550 paracord, some small hand towels, a small Coleman heater and a couple of propane bottles, sometimes a small bag of charcoal, flashlights, extra batteries, and a few things I'm probably forgetting.

The food sack contained 3-4 full meal MREs, 3-4 Mountain House freeze dried Entrees, a couple of the Mainstay Food Bars, several Datrex water pouches, a case of bottled water, a mix of MRE and freeze dried sides and desserts, and the sack was a Cabelas dry bag.

The winter clothes bag contained a parka, insulate bibs, proclavas, stocking hats, gauntlet style insulated mittens and gloves, wrist length insulated gloves, fleece gloves, Sorel Pac boots, extra socks, wool socks, a couple of sleeveless muscle tees to layer, a set of thermal underwear, and a fleece jacket and vest. In the warmer months this bag came out and a summer bag went in the had a rain parka, rain pants, a poncho, hat, gloves, and a couple of pairs of socks.

I also usually had a change of clothes with a couple of pairs of underwear, a couple of pairs of socks, 2 t-shirts, a long sleeve canvas shirt, and a pair of pants. A couple of fleece jackets, a pair of old tennis shoes, and a pair of hiking boots.

I had a Adventure Medical Comprehensive First Aid Kit, a smaller Toyota First Aid Kit, a Knuckle Mender Kit, and a separate bag with a CPR mask, gloves, hand sanitizer, and some heating pads of various sizes. In my door storage area I also had wet wipes, bug wipes, and sun block wipes. I had First Responder Training yearly at work plus some more advanced First Aid stuff from time to time.

On my person, in the console, or in my day pack I also had a couple more Leatherman, a couple more flashlights and batteries, and matches. I may also have a pistol and extra ammo and even a rifle and ammo.

I set things up not only for an emergency situation, but for the times when I may have taken a drive and then wished that I had my camping stuff so I could stay over. I also used to go out with my twin Nephews and their Scout troop a lot. I did the food so there were options of having things that could just be opened and eaten when under stress and then stuff that took a little preparation after things settled.

I think I could do pretty good in most cases with what I carry and what I know. I can't hike anymore so I would be staying with the vehicle so that led me to carry a bit extra than what would be normal. If it was a situation where the vehicle still ran and it was just a blocked road or something I also know several back roads in the area too that will take me from one town or area to another.

I still need to put a lot of the stuff into the Tundra from when I took it out of the FJ. I noticed that I had some stuff that was in multiples that I don't need. The old put it in the truck and forget about it only to add the same thing again a few months later. I'm also going to go from a backpack to an Action Packer and small ammo cans to organize things a bit better.
 

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I Have a V-8!! Moderator
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I used to have 2 vehicles, an enclosed cargo trailer for my ATV, and an ATV. I had survival packs made up for all of them.

A few years ago a new engineer in my work area was hired on. We worked closely together and became friends. She would drive up to another coworker's retirement home they were building and help her and her husband with the building. It was winter and the areas she passed through could be nasty and the roads were often some of the first ones that were closed. Depending on where you were stuck at they could be really remote too.

I mentioned to her that she should carry a sleeping bag and or blankets, some food and water, and a few other things just in case as the roads could be closed for a few hours or a couple of weeks. If you were lucky you would be in a place where you could turn around and head back to the nearest town, if not you might stuck sitting on or on the side of the road out in the middle of nowhere in bad weather.

I had sold my trailer, ATV, and one vehicle but I kept the bags from them. I went through one and pulled some of the stuff out like the Leatherman and flashlights, sorted the food and water and updated it, and then I made a list of what was in the bag, and what she might add and gave it to her. She told me a couple of days later that she added the bag and some blankets to her truck.

About 2 weeks after that a storm hit. She was on her way back and the roads were shut down. She turned around and took a different way that added about 150 or so miles and got to another section of road that was shut down. She ended up stuck out on the side of the road for almost two days before things were cleaned up and opened again. She was pretty happy that someone took the time to explain things to her and let her know about the roads and weather in the area and that I had also given her that pack to help her start her own kit. It paid off.
 

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A recent death of an African American man by a white police Officer has sparked racial tensions in multiple cities across the United States. After being told to leave work early in a downtown area, you are inevitably held over. You can see protesters from the window of your office building while looking below at the street. As your conference call comes to a close, you look at the time, it is now dusk. You turn on the news and are advised that protests are generally peaceful but last night scores of businesses suffered looting and arson attacks as well as violent attacks. A security guard is stationed within the parking garage and advises you, you are one of the last to leave and to stay safe. You get in your car, ensuring the windows and door locks are locked, entering the downtown area.


As you approach a city intersection a group of illegal protesters gather in the center of the street. Chanting at you, "No Justice, No Peace." The crowd gathers around your vehicle, some beginning to rock it side to side.

What do you do?

What would I do if in the middle of an agitated Mob of Protesters that is rocking my car??

I take any threat seriously. Things can go from bad to worse in seconds. If I have a gun, like a concealed carry permit, I get it ready and get ready to use it. Then I call 911, give my exact location, and describe the threat, and also that I have a licensed gun and may fire warning shots if necessary. I honk my horn to clear out those in front. I might put on my Car Alarm too, just to draw attention that I need help! I fire warning shots out the window- not at people, but to clear them out. Then I drive out when possible- only running over anyone in the way if the situation seems to warrant. Hopefully the police show up quickly, but if not I just do the best I can. And I use the 4WD if necessary to take a short cut across grass and small barriers to get the hell outta!! :wink

Not an FJ, but the cattle catcher and other options could be modified for FJC, LOL! :

 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
I take any threat seriously...may fire warning shots
Warning shots are generally unlawful, they are not in the continuum of force. Outside of some military applications they are generally not advisable. LE, Military and CCW instructors all advise against them not only for their ineffective nature but the unlawful nature of discharging a round onto a unknown target. Round has to go somewhere. Using a lethal weapon means that you fear for your life, a display of force has already been presented when you pulled your CCW, warning shots do nothing and could bring force against you.

If you feel your life is in danger, you may need to stop the threat, not scare it off. A concealed carry handgun is not for intimidation, it's to stop lethal threats to you or your family. If the threat backs off after you pulled your weapon, great, don't fire. It's a fluid concept, use of force, up and down the continuum.

This, of course, is not to knock your input at all. I enjoy these discussions, so much so I have made a career of what if's.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
= It was winter and the areas she passed through could be nasty and the roads were often some of the first ones that were closed. Depending on where you were stuck at they could be really remote too.
Having been through Wyoming in the fall it hit me that there is absolutely nothing for incredible distances on the highway. Cell phone service is not great, good luck getting internet or the fancy stuff on your phone to work outside any of the cities.

On a road trip, it also dawned on me when I saw the open gates, during storms they do not plow like they do on the East Coast. They close the gate and wait, if people are stuck in between the sections they may be there for sometime.
 

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I Have a V-8!! Moderator
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Having been through Wyoming in the fall it hit me that there is absolutely nothing for incredible distances on the highway. Cell phone service is not great, good luck getting internet or the fancy stuff on your phone to work outside any of the cities.

On a road trip, it also dawned on me when I saw the open gates, during storms they do not plow like they do on the East Coast. They close the gate and wait, if people are stuck in between the sections they may be there for sometime.
Yep there are some remote stretches. Hell I drove 75 miles down a highway just outside my house to CO a couple of summers ago and didn't see a single vehicle or person in that time. Cell service is fairly good along the main corridors like I80 usually, but can fade out at any time. Don't even try in some areas off the beaten path. I've heard the ads about 4g and 5g or whatever. I get 3g once in awhile on my phone. It started squawking and making noise on me one day when I was down in Ogden, UT. I had no clue what was going on. Apparently being in the big city it picked up on the different things I usually don't get and was trying to update and connect and whatnot.

It's hard for them to plow and do upkeep on the roads here. They can plow through a section and by the time they turn around to get back it can be drifted in. They drop sand too, but if it's really icy, the wind will blow the sand right off of the road. Part of the reason they close them too is the wind itself. It can blow a semi over and if it's slick out you can get gusts in some areas that will blow you off the road if you're not expecting it. Also the weather can change in a short time. It was in the mid 50s for a high today. Sunday they are calling for possible snow and highs in the low 30s. A couple of weeks ago the temperatures dropped about 30 degrees in a 4 hour span and the winds were in the 50mph range when they were calm to start with. It can snow in the morning and be warm and bare in the afternoon.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
It's hard for them to plow and do upkeep on the roads here. .
Nebraska is just about as remote, between Cheyenne WY and Lincoln, not much exist. I'm curious what do they do for the non-local's who get stuck on the roads? I'm sure people become trapped every year between the gates.
 

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I Have a V-8!! Moderator
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Usually when they close them from what I've seen they have an Officer with the Highway Patrol close down the gates then either him or another will drive between them to where the next gate is and check for people. Also people that are on the road will have a spot to pull off at the next gate say at a town, wide spot, or access road that isn't closed that will take them to a town. Around here we have signs that tell you if the gate is closed to turn around and go back to town. Some people do and some will sit at the gates and wait. Sometimes if it's bad enough the Officers will escort people back to town. They open up the fairgrounds and other places if there are a lot of stranded travelers. We've had enough truckers and travelers to fill up all the truck stops, parking lots at the malls, the fairgrounds, and still some park on side streets.
 

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I Have a V-8!! Moderator
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I've been lucky and haven't been stuck from closed roads yet and haven't had to use any of the stuff I carry. It's there if needed though. Sometimes I think it's way overkill, but then again I've got it if needed. If I knew things were going to be really bad and I rationed stuff I could probably sit somewhere for 2-3 weeks maybe even 4 weeks. Water would be the first thing that I'd get low on, but then I could melt snow if needed. Usually if I'm traveling I'll have some extra water and iced tea with me besides what's stored in the vehicle too. Also if I know the weather is going to be bad I'll eat and/or bring something to eat with me too. The only times I've hit closed roads I've known ways around them and just took back roads or a different highway to get where I needed.
 

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Warning shots are generally unlawful, they are not in the continuum of force. Outside of some military applications they are generally not advisable. LE, Military and CCW instructors all advise against them not only for their ineffective nature but the unlawful nature of discharging a round onto a unknown target. Round has to go somewhere. Using a lethal weapon means that you fear for your life, a display of force has already been presented when you pulled your CCW, warning shots do nothing and could bring force against you.

If you feel your life is in danger, you may need to stop the threat, not scare it off. A concealed carry handgun is not for intimidation, it's to stop lethal threats to you or your family. If the threat backs off after you pulled your weapon, great, don't fire. It's a fluid concept, use of force, up and down the continuum.

This, of course, is not to knock your input at all. I enjoy these discussions, so much so I have made a career of what if's.
GTK, Thanks. I live in a Downtown where we sometimes have violence, and in my neighborhood just had one killed and 4 wounded. I can tell you that oftentimes people fire their guns down here, and people DO get out of the way- FAST. Of course, these are illegal guns, and it's usually a fight, and not an illegal Protest. I do not have a CCL at this time, but if I did I certainly would abide by the Law to the letter. I realize that when you fire a bullet upwards as a warning that it still has to come down, and could come down anywhere- so I get your point. Good Talk! :grin

BTW What would YOU do in this situation- and let's ramp it up a bit- your 2 Year old Son is in the backseat car seat..?? You are surrounded and they are shaking your car back and forth, as described...thanks, Anne

An unexpected scenario can happen at anytime. Pic. of my FJ in Active Crime Scene Nov.8th, when 5 shot 1 killed on our block following a "fight".

 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
BTW What would YOU do in this situation- and let's ramp it up a bit- your 2 Year old Son is in the backseat car seat..?? You are surrounded and they are shaking your car back and forth, as described...thanks, Anne
Anne, no easy answer. Protesters are human and I'm not sure any of us are prepared to smash into people with our vehicles. Once the threat has started however, if you are pulled out of your vehicle things are going to go downhill very quickly.

In one of the video's currently on YouTube, the vehicle inches towards protesters and is going 1 or 2 miles per hour, less than walking speed, the protesters start yelling the vehicle hit someone. People start jumping on the station wagon, beating on it with flag poles ect; it's obvious, if the vehicle grazed someone no injuries were incurred. Once the first act of violence occurs by the mob, you have no hope but to get out of there. The driver of the vehicle proceeds to drive through the crowd.


The scary thing? The video shows a small child (maybe 8 or 9) standing with his father. I did not know anti-police protests were a family activity.

Two Examples:



In the other video, the reporter in the news chopper overhead almost seems surprised that the driver floors it. People have to be realistic, these protests could easily turn violent. Being surrounded, being yelled at, people beating on your windows. You better believe a person can fear for their lives and the lives of anyone else in the vehicle. It can quickly turn into a life or death situation.

To answer your question, if I feel the protests are about to turn violent, I'm getting out of there. I would do my best to avoid the intersection but once you are there you have to push through the threat. If you are mobile, stay mobile, just like convoy operations. Stopping and being surrounded is a major risk. I don't see a concealed firearm being the answer, as it is typical to only carry 5 to 10 rounds in a backup firearm. It's debatable if CCW's will even carry an extra magazine. You are not going to survive if you stay near the protesters, they feel justified in their physical response due to mob mentality, once it's started it's not going to end. A heck of a lot more people than a backup defensive firearm is meant to deal with.

One thing that continues to surprise me, people do not understand their rights. The right to peacefully assemble is granted but you never have the right to interfere with others rights. I think this is part of the reason why the crowd in the video almost seems vindicated that the driver is wrong. They honestly believe they can do what ever they want. For some reason protesters have this idea because they are protesting they are the right to interfere with others, break the law. YouTube is full of people claiming because it's a legal protest, they have a right to be in a road. You have the right to protest from the sidewalk. You do not have the right to impede traffic by standing in the middle of a roadway. Marches are bit different and are generally covered by a permit, not adhoc as we see here.
 

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Anne, no easy answer. Protesters are human and I'm not sure any of us are prepared to smash into people with our vehicles. Once the threat has started however, if you are pulled out of your vehicle things are going to go downhill very quickly.

In one of the video's currently on YouTube, the vehicle inches towards protesters and is going 1 or 2 miles per hour, less than walking speed, the protesters start yelling the vehicle hit someone. People start jumping on the station wagon, beating on it with flag poles ect; it's obvious, if the vehicle grazed someone no injuries were incurred. Once the first act of violence occurs by the mob, you have no hope but to get out of there. The driver of the vehicle proceeds to drive through the crowd.


The scary thing? The video shows a small child (maybe 8 or 9) standing with his father. I did not know anti-police protests were a family activity.

Two Examples:

Video One

Video Two

In the other video, the reporter in the news chopper overhead almost seems surprised that the driver floors it. People have to be realistic, these protests could easily turn violent. Being surrounded, being yelled at, people beating on your windows. You better believe a person can fear for their lives and the lives of anyone else in the vehicle. It can quickly turn into a life or death situation.

To answer your question, if I feel the protests are about to turn violent, I'm getting out of there. I would do my best to avoid the intersection but once you are there you have to push through the threat. If you are mobile, stay mobile, just like convoy operations. Stopping and being surrounded is a major risk. I don't see a concealed firearm being the answer, as it is typical to only carry 5 to 10 rounds in a backup firearm. It's debatable if CCW's will even carry an extra magazine. You are not going to survive if you stay near the protesters, they feel justified in their physical response due to mob mentality, once it's started it's not going to end. A heck of a lot more people than a backup defensive firearm is meant to deal with.
These Videos are a great example, and TY for showing the unEdited versions. Surely the Driver could NOT see what was going on because people were on the car hood obstructing the view, while others were beating at the windows. You must flee in that situation, 2 yr. old in back seat or not...or become Victim. I would hope any of us would try to keep a level head, call for help, and make decisions based on the level of perceived threat. A Mob that is out of control as we've seen all this week on TV, and perhaps have even witnessed in real life can quickly become a lethal threat. I personally hope none of us has to ever make that difficult decision as to whether or not to use lethal force. Unfortunately, these days you need a plan, and you have to be willing to survive if it comes down to that, and protect your loved ones, IMHO.

Thanks for your insightful input- very thoughtful and valuable. Like the whole concept of "Preparedness".
Thanks, Anne
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)


After a long day of tinkering on a Toyota Project that never seems to end, you finally hit the couch as your partner finishes dinner. You look towards the kitchen hoping to see some signs of a finished meal. The power fails. With only slight illumination of gas burners on the stove, the house is dark.

Update from your weather radio: Regional Power outage. East Coast.
A Government Emergency Message alerts you to faulty equipment in the power grid.

You call the local utility provider and are advised that there is not estimated time of repair.

Current temperature: 26 degrees expected to dip to 5.

A buddy calls you, a local photographer, advises you that even time square is down. People are laugh he says....

 

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Discussion Starter #20
Sorry guys, finals have taken priority for my Graduate Program. You would think at this point I live in a local library...



Looters have began to roam your neighborhood.

A few friends left the community, in hopes of making it family and friends outside the city. Your semi-urban community has several vacated homes, you promised to do your best to keep an eye on things while they were away. Despite being told they would try to send word of success from your friends you haven't heard from them.

This is a two prong question:
- Do you advise your friends the possibility of looters and leave goods with you that they are not taking? (Asking for their stuff so others can't get it)
- At what point do you secure vacated homes in a Katrina scenario?

After observing flashlights in a nearby home you can hear people in your backyard. The door of your shed slides open, with obvious male voices describing what they have found to each other. One of them says to the other "That's it? A lawnmower? Wheres the gas?", the other says "it must be in the garage"

Question:
What is your response?
Castle Doctrine in my state, states intruders must break the threshold of the residence in order to defend your life. Without rule of law in the current state of a regional crisis, I have a feeling you could fear for your life.
 
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