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My background is Live Concert Sound & Studio: (ray Charles, Ike & Tina, Chick Corea, & many others so I'll throw a few sense into the 'discussion', I'll be brief & simple and a few toes are gonna get stepped on (SORRY Bout That!). Most Audiophile info is BS! Car Audio especially. Listening to speakers (& systems) in a room full of audio equipment is meaningless: Why?- because the one set of speakers you are listening to in a room Full of speakers 'excites them All! Every speaker in the room is Also moving and making those speakers sound Tons better than they would alone. Pros do what is called an A/B test: comparing two sets of speakers against each other in the room you are going to use them in- something you obviously cannot do for car speakers as a purchaser. And Loud Speakers are 20% (at best) efficient, whereas electronics are about 80% or so (usually less) efficient----This means that the best money is spent on the speakers (even for car audio-though as a rough rule car electronics are Far cruder than home stereos). The Hard and fast rule buying Home stereos is 50% of the budget should be spent on the loudspeakers, No Less! Component speaker systems are much better than combined units (HF & Mid/Low Freq. together), and nowhere is this more important than in car systems. High Frequency is Highly directional- (you want in more or less aimed at your ears, mid range-less so, Low (bass) is even less so-which is why the bass speakers are put way in back. Sound is all about air movement- and the speakers are 'enclosed (usually) so that what comes off the back of the speaker (which is "out of phase"-pulling, while the front of the speaker is trying to 'push the air forward,; or visa-versa) doesn't cancel the air movement out). Combined units (HF & Mids together in one unit) do Not work well because they mount for the HF unit physically blocks the mid/low speaker's air wave which is Very detrimental. So a dash mount for the HF in a separate speaker will work best, and use the door mount for the mids in the front of the 'FJ' and actually , at least for cars facing up towards the windshield is actually better as it adds' space'; in the back seats a combined unit or better yet a small 5 1/2" & separate tweeter (HF) is the way to go if you can fit them in the panel. I'll talk about 'subs' in a minute. The 'path to your ears from different speakers reproducing the Same freq. cancels the difference in length. Waves with a definite length (remember that curvy thing called a wave?). Crossovers are important in that they prevent low freq from blowing out the high freq units and allow each loudspeaker to the job it is best at, and not distort etc. Your ears can hear (theoretically from 20 cycles (or Hertz-Hz) per second to 20,000 Hz (or cps-cycles per second- they both mean the same thing), which is quite a range. Low is the '20 end'. PHASE: phase is the Direction of Movement (in speakers systems)- and is most noticeable at the low end (low Freq.s)- Sadly different manufacturers do this differently, so if speakers are 'mixed' (two manufacturers) you can have one set of speakers moving forward and the other moving backward- not good!
Because "audiophiles" are like wine 'experts',always trying to one up each other, most, if not All of what you hear in stereo stores (incl. car) is a pure load of crap! What you Want to hear is what the artist intended you to hear, i.e. what was recorded in the studio! Or as close to that as you can get. So what do the Pros use?: Round speakers in component systems. If Oval speakers worked that's what you'd see in studio control rooms, in concert systems. Next time you go to a concert look at the 'Flying system' (overhead) or the cabinets facing you- it is just a HUGE component system-separate speakers Each doing part of the audio range. So, how do you pick speakers?- The cheap & dirty way is by weight! The bigger the magnet the better the speaker- and to a certain extent the lighter the 'cone' the better too- as what It is trying to do is 'couple' with the much lighter air. Now you Can have a pretty good sounding system without a huge bass speaker, as long as the speakers you do have can reproduce as low a set of frequencies as you can buy. Low 'end' (freq.)has to move a Lot of air, HF moves just a tiny bit but has to react faster as the wavelengths are smaller (-shorter). But, in this day & age somehow that 'bottom' end has become a huge selling point (as it's expensive-amps & speakers)- not to mention the 'macho' factor. But I'm going to say This: Buy hearing aid stock Now! There are going to be a whole Lot of deaf people in the future! Ear drums (yours) can only take so much! Big 'air is moving Tiny eardrums! And the effect is cumulative folks!
So; what am I gonna put in My newly (2010 used) FJ?: JBL's which is more or less the 'gold standard' (I'm out on a bit of a limb here-even pro's disagree) both in Recording Studio's around the world, And in Concert systems. It is therefore what most of what you listen to was mixed down on. So be CAREFUL with those aptly named 'boom boxes' people. And now for a Lot of "toes"...... I-pods ain't music! There is a Reason you can fit like a thousand songs in a tiny little box with an infinitesimal chip inside- it's because the original music has been 'compressed', chopped, reconstituted to a shadow of it's formal self & glory. The exception being Rap & hip-hop, which is just a beat for the most part anyway. When I get around to it (lots of FJ projects at present to do!) I'll post more, I need to loom at what the 'standard' FJ system (which is what I ended up with being a used vehicle) 'specs' are to see what the thing will drive..... most of My $ goes into recording gear at present. to say nothing of the economic 'hit' of the 'Cruiser' itself! Chao!
 

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Agree, great read! I used to set up PA for the military and attended the Peavey school for audio in MS. Most of what you have mentioned sounds reasonable which is why I generally will mix and match speakers and HU(I know you said not to and I don't disagree here). I am looking for the best speaker that I can find in the size I am looking for and generally it seems like companies specialize in only a small range of speaker sizes. I did go with 6x9's in the front doors even though I am not a big fan of oval speakers either. Eventually maybe I will invest in a second pair of kenwood components for the front to match the ones in the rear seats I installed. One thing you didn't mention was no matter what you should always try to match impedence. If the amp you bought is a 2 ohm by 2 or 4 ohm by four that doesn't mean you hook up 8 speakers in parallel. Many may laugh but my friends did this in high school and then could not figure out why my Wally world jensens in the escort wagon blew them away. Anyways welcome and thanks for the great read!
 

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Yep it is definately cumulative - the infamous "wall of sound" was just a series of speakers repeated over and over..

 

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damn, now I hafta throw out all my ipods and compressed music because "convenient" isn't suitable for listening is a car - no wait TRUCK - with tire noise, driveline noise, wind noise, etc.

No toes stepped on - I mean seriously - if anyone is driving their car/truck and expect a "critical" listening experience, you're in the wrong place.

While many espouse compressed music as the scourge of all evil, it is what it is - a convenient way to listening to your music on the move.

Critical listening is best kept to REALLY good equipment in your HOUSE, unless of course you have a concert hall to go to and the equipment to fill it.

Interesting point of view otherwise.
 

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My background is Live Concert Sound & Studio: (ray Charles, Ike & Tina, Chick Corea, & many others so I'll throw a few sense into the 'discussion', I'll be brief & simple and a few toes are gonna get stepped on (SORRY Bout That!). Most Audiophile info is BS! Car Audio especially. Listening to speakers (& systems) in a room full of audio equipment is meaningless: Why?- because the one set of speakers you are listening to in a room Full of speakers 'excites them All! Every speaker in the room is Also moving and making those speakers sound Tons better than they would alone. Pros do what is called an A/B test: comparing two sets of speakers against each other in the room you are going to use them in- something you obviously cannot do for car speakers as a purchaser. And Loud Speakers are 20% (at best) efficient, whereas electronics are about 80% or so (usually less) efficient----This means that the best money is spent on the speakers (even for car audio-though as a rough rule car electronics are Far cruder than home stereos). The Hard and fast rule buying Home stereos is 50% of the budget should be spent on the loudspeakers, No Less! Component speaker systems are much better than combined units (HF & Mid/Low Freq. together), and nowhere is this more important than in car systems. High Frequency is Highly directional- (you want in more or less aimed at your ears, mid range-less so, Low (bass) is even less so-which is why the bass speakers are put way in back. Sound is all about air movement- and the speakers are 'enclosed (usually) so that what comes off the back of the speaker (which is "out of phase"-pulling, while the front of the speaker is trying to 'push the air forward,; or visa-versa) doesn't cancel the air movement out). Combined units (HF & Mids together in one unit) do Not work well because they mount for the HF unit physically blocks the mid/low speaker's air wave which is Very detrimental. So a dash mount for the HF in a separate speaker will work best, and use the door mount for the mids in the front of the 'FJ' and actually , at least for cars facing up towards the windshield is actually better as it adds' space'; in the back seats a combined unit or better yet a small 5 1/2" & separate tweeter (HF) is the way to go if you can fit them in the panel. I'll talk about 'subs' in a minute. The 'path to your ears from different speakers reproducing the Same freq. cancels the difference in length. Waves with a definite length (remember that curvy thing called a wave?). Crossovers are important in that they prevent low freq from blowing out the high freq units and allow each loudspeaker to the job it is best at, and not distort etc. Your ears can hear (theoretically from 20 cycles (or Hertz-Hz) per second to 20,000 Hz (or cps-cycles per second- they both mean the same thing), which is quite a range. Low is the '20 end'. PHASE: phase is the Direction of Movement (in speakers systems)- and is most noticeable at the low end (low Freq.s)- Sadly different manufacturers do this differently, so if speakers are 'mixed' (two manufacturers) you can have one set of speakers moving forward and the other moving backward- not good!
Because "audiophiles" are like wine 'experts',always trying to one up each other, most, if not All of what you hear in stereo stores (incl. car) is a pure load of crap! What you Want to hear is what the artist intended you to hear, i.e. what was recorded in the studio! Or as close to that as you can get. So what do the Pros use?: Round speakers in component systems. If Oval speakers worked that's what you'd see in studio control rooms, in concert systems. Next time you go to a concert look at the 'Flying system' (overhead) or the cabinets facing you- it is just a HUGE component system-separate speakers Each doing part of the audio range. So, how do you pick speakers?- The cheap & dirty way is by weight! The bigger the magnet the better the speaker- and to a certain extent the lighter the 'cone' the better too- as what It is trying to do is 'couple' with the much lighter air. Now you Can have a pretty good sounding system without a huge bass speaker, as long as the speakers you do have can reproduce as low a set of frequencies as you can buy. Low 'end' (freq.)has to move a Lot of air, HF moves just a tiny bit but has to react faster as the wavelengths are smaller (-shorter). But, in this day & age somehow that 'bottom' end has become a huge selling point (as it's expensive-amps & speakers)- not to mention the 'macho' factor. But I'm going to say This: Buy hearing aid stock Now! There are going to be a whole Lot of deaf people in the future! Ear drums (yours) can only take so much! Big 'air is moving Tiny eardrums! And the effect is cumulative folks!
So; what am I gonna put in My newly (2010 used) FJ?: JBL's which is more or less the 'gold standard' (I'm out on a bit of a limb here-even pro's disagree) both in Recording Studio's around the world, And in Concert systems. It is therefore what most of what you listen to was mixed down on. So be CAREFUL with those aptly named 'boom boxes' people. And now for a Lot of "toes"...... I-pods ain't music! There is a Reason you can fit like a thousand songs in a tiny little box with an infinitesimal chip inside- it's because the original music has been 'compressed', chopped, reconstituted to a shadow of it's formal self & glory. The exception being Rap & hip-hop, which is just a beat for the most part anyway. When I get around to it (lots of FJ projects at present to do!) I'll post more, I need to loom at what the 'standard' FJ system (which is what I ended up with being a used vehicle) 'specs' are to see what the thing will drive..... most of My $ goes into recording gear at present. to say nothing of the economic 'hit' of the 'Cruiser' itself! Chao!
What is a "concert pro" as the title of your post states? Have you performed on stage with Ray Charles, Ike & Tina, and/or Chick Corea? If not, have you personally engineered concert audio systems for them, or are you simply stating that you just like to listen to these artists? Do you have a degree related audio engineering?

-FJ Florida-
 

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Easy Florida, I know you are dying to measure degrees here and the physics of sound waves. He was just stating some experience from working with equipment. He makes some very interesting points in the huge paragraph written. Some people throw together systems without researching anything into what they just did while many many people over think the process. I mean if you are putting together an audio system for a show to try and place then much more must go into the design. As far as the FJ goes we do what we can with the space given and try to hope that the crap we pack into the cargo area doesn't destroy it in the 15 years it gets abused.
 

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Easy Florida, I know you are dying to measure degrees here and the physics of sound waves. He was just stating some experience from working with equipment. He makes some very interesting points in the huge paragraph written. Some people throw together systems without researching anything into what they just did while many many people over think the process. I mean if you are putting together an audio system for a show to try and place then much more must go into the design. As far as the FJ goes we do what we can with the space given and try to hope that the crap we pack into the cargo area doesn't destroy it in the 15 years it gets abused.
I'm not saying anything. I'm just asking a few basic questions.

-FJ Florida-
 

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What is a "concert pro" as the title of your post states? Have you performed on stage with Ray Charles, Ike & Tina, and/or Chick Corea? If not, have you personally engineered concert audio systems for them, and if so, when, where, and what was your role in the engineering, or are you simply stating that you just like to listen to these artists? Do you have a degree related audio engineering?

-FJ Florida-
Easy now.... Lets not run this guy off after his first post. If you had carefully read the first few lines of his post, he stated that his professional backgroung was stage and studio sound/audio for professional musicians.
 

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Easy now.... Lets not run this guy off after his first post. If you had carefully read the first few lines of his post, he stated that his professional backgroung was stage and studio sound/audio for professional musicians.
Ok, ok. I'm not trying to run anybody off. I'm not saying anything, and I didn't say anything. I read the whole thing about five times. I'm just asking a few basic questions.

-FJ Florida-
 

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Well, I wanted to keep my response sort of a surprise if you will, but since I have been jumped on twice already I will just say it now - I agree with about 95% of the post, and I can back it up too - SURPRISE! :bigthumb:

Geez, just because of a "spirited debate" I had on a different topic ...

What I really wanted to know before posting a long statement of agreement is how he learned all of this stuff. For all I know he has performed with these artists or personally engineered their systems or has an advanced degree or has other extensive experience. He obviously knows a whole lot.

My long statement of agreement will follow when I have time to address it all and back it all up. Of course, my 5% of my two cents worth of disagreement/clarification will be included, but that's pretty minimal :lol: .

Now, Jim Wolf: Welcome to the forum, and what prompted your audio post? Also, just curious, why did you choose the FJ?

-FJ Florida-
 

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It still comes down to basics: I like what sounds good to me...and my systems sounds good to me (and sounding better with each modification)
 

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I am NOT an expert...... but I do know that at 70mph, windows open or closed, tires humming, cars and trucks going by, wife "talking " to me....... perfect sound ain't happen in my truck, besides would rather spend the money other places......... like on gas.
 

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You mean my Ipod with ear phones isn't the best way to listen to music?

I have an increased bass button with the ear plugs which sounds great. The plugs block out all the road, wind and people noise so please someone tell me why with the environmental noises at 70mph in a FJ cruiser a speaker or amp or radio is going to sound better than my IPOD with high quality ear plugs especially when I can control with an EQ APP the music.

Obviously screwing with anyone who wants to argue:))
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Ahhh, The Great-Dead System!! Blew the Audio world away! Yes, But, also a 'Wall' of MacIntosh Tube Amps to power that 40' tall system- To my knowledge no one else has had the courage (or Owsley Stanley's $ for that manner) to replicate what they did. Each separate stack (except the center vocal array) was an individual instrument & they used a truly amazing vocal mic technique to avoid feedback. Between them & Pink Floydd- there are/where no others I wished I had the chance to work with! The 'tie guys" at JBL were freaked out by what the Dead were doing!-Alembic was an offshoot as was Meyers Sound (I believe).
 

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Car audio Cant be compared to other forms of audio reproduction because the listening environment is so different. We deal with road, engine, and wind noise. We deal with parallel surfaces, tons if cancellation, and weird phasing issues. The reflections off glass is bad enough. Not to even mention the low frequencies can't even develop in a car due to the wavelength being so much longer than the car. You can feel low frequencies but you aren't hearing them. It takes so much more in deadening, fabrication, power supply, and proper speaker positioning to get a car to sound good than a room built to ideal specs for audio reproduction. Two totally different worlds.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
On stage No, unless you are counting sound/mic checks. I was the guy out in the audience at the mixing console, and packing up at 3 Am & loading the truck and then driving-(those days we often slept in the truck) on the way to he next gig. Interesting times as we were then often inventing the equipment as Rock & Roll was at the forefront of innovation. What are called Roadies on the "Big" level often have as many years learning their craft as the musicians- the systems are nowadays so complex and so 'edgy' people have no idea- I helped build studios, built stage and P.A. systems and did installs from Vegas showrooms to clubs, but my personal 'love' (and you Needed to love it!) was live sound-Concerts. Yeah I worked with those performers, and many more.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Absolutely True! Nothing you do in a vehicle can sound Near as good as a good home system, and a quick note here: The Less electronics you shove that signal through the better! Everything & I mean everything that happens to sound once it leaves the vocalists mouth or the instrument degrades it! That's why the professional gear is so D$%# expensive! So less is Better! The more 'circuits' involved the better. Careful using earphones when driving: a lot of laces that is illegal-(you can't hear the ambulances, or the cops pulling you over- at least that's Their view of it).
 
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