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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There are a ton of new restrictions being proposed... Please try to make one of these meetings:

To Washington State DNR Recreation E-News Subscribers:

Hi Folks

As some of you are aware, the Washington State Department of Natural Resources has been working on revising our current recreation rules, which were developed in the early 1970s. We are really excited about the approach we took in writing the rules and hope that you will find them easier to read and more understandable. You will notice that the new rules focus on addressing unacceptable behavior versus a "thou shall not" approach.

Please pass the following information on to whomever you think would be interested.

Take care

Mark

Mark Mauren
Assistant Division Manager, Recreation and WCC Programs
Asset Management and Protection Division
Department of Natural Resources
PO Box 47014
Olympia, Washington 98504-7014
360-902-1047
[email protected]

DNR is updating the Washington Administrative Code for WAC 332-52 to meet today's standards for public safety and natural resource protection. The focus of the recreation rules revision is to provide information in a clear and understandable way. The question and answer format is designed to help the reader find the desired information with ease.

The rule update addresses such topics as sanitation, traffic, firearms and target shooting. New language has also been drafted regarding roads and trails, campground use, water recreation facilities, and anchorage.

Please try to attend one of the public hearings below, or provide comments to Mary Coacher at (360) 902-1430 [email protected] or Doug McClelland at (206) 920-5907 [email protected]

Recreation Rules on State-Managed Trust Lands - Update
The existing rules regarding recreation and access were written in the 1970s and have not been changed since this time. Because of this, the rules do not address all of the current recreation uses or the operating environment that exists today. Revising the rules will help DNR accommodate a wide range of uses with a standard set of expectations, while promoting safety and encouraging stewardship of natural resources.

The rules pertain only to public behavior when accessing and recreating on DNR-managed lands. The type and amount of recreation opportunities in any given location are determined by the department on the basis of land management considerations on a site by site basis, governed by policies of the Board of Natural Resources.

A copy of the proposed chapter 332-52 WAC will be available through the Office of the Code Reviser / Order Typing Service at Page Not Found

Public hearings will be held across the state in June 2008. All hearings begin at 6:00 p.m.:

Tuesday, June 10th, 2008: Mount Vernon, Best Western Cotton Tree
Address: 2300 Market Street, Mount Vernon, WA
Phone: (360) 428-5678



Thursday, June 12, 2008: Port Angeles, Senior Community Center
Address: 328 E 7th St, Port Angeles, WA
Phone: (360) 457-7004

Tuesday, June 17, 2008:
Westside location at Hoquiam, Timberland Library
Address: 420 7th Street, Hoquiam, WA
Phone: (360) 532-1710

Tuesday, June 17, 2008:
Eastside location at Issaquah, King County Library Service Center, Public Meeting Room (2A/B)
Address: 960 Newport Way NW, Issaquah, WA
Phone: (425) 369-3200‏

Wednesday, June 18, 2008:
Westside location at Vancouver, Red Lion at the Quay
Address: 100 Columbia Street, Vancouver, WA
Phone: (360) 694-8341

Wednesday, June 18, 2008:
Eastside location at Ellensburg, Central Washington University, Student Union and Recreation Center, Room 137B
Address: 1007 N. Chestnut Street, Ellensburg, WA
Phone: (509) 963-1111

Thursday, June 19, 2008:
Westside location at Olympia, Phoenix Inn Suites
Address: 417 Capitol Way N, Olympia, WA
Phone: (360) 570-0555

Thursday, June 19, 2008:
Eastside location at Omak, Sun Valley Restaurant
Address: 1 Appleway Road, Okanogan, WA
Phone: (509) 422- 2070

Wednesday, June 25th, 2008: Spokane, Hilton Garden Inn-Spokane Airport
Address: 9015 W Sunset Hwy, Spokane, WA 99224
Phone: (509) 244-5866

I'm scheduled to attended the Olympia meeting, hope to see some of you there.
:bigthumb:
 

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Has someone deciphered these restrictions through the legal mumbo-jumbo?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Scroll down the document past the initial mumbo-jumbo, it becomes pretty clear when they start striking out the 1970 wording and replacing it with new restrictions.
 

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Notice your link says "Page not found" and it's right. Page not found.

So, no one has perused these documents for what they really say? What I can make of the legal crap is that the state will now designate areas/roads for off-road use where now we can drive any DNR roads...Is that the big thing here?

I just think if someone would post what's REALLY going on with this document and what laws are REALLY being changed, the parties against these changes might get more support.
 

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After perusing several websites for The Real Story on this issue, what I have gathered is the BIG CHANGE being proposed is that all DNR roads/areas are considered CLOSED to ORV use unless designated OPEN. Right now it's the exact opposite.

So, with one swift wave of the magical legislative pen, they close 90% (or more) of the state to ORV use.

There may be some other stuff in there too, but I am not a lawyer, or a lawmaker and trying to decipher a WAC makes my brain explode into little bits.

So....Now that we have that stated: This new, proposed law sucks in a HUGE way for ORV'ers in WA State!!!!
 

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I will be at the Lynnwood Meeting Tuesday, June 17, 2008:
Eastside location at Issaquah, King County Library Service Center, Public Meeting Room (2A/B)
Address: 960 Newport Way NW, Issaquah, WA
Phone: (425) 369-3200‏....anyone else want to caravan up there?

Depending on how that goes I might drive down to Olympia too.....Thursday, June 19, 2008:
Westside location at Olympia, Phoenix Inn Suites
Address: 417 Capitol Way N, Olympia, WA
Phone: (360) 570-0555
 

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I still have not found anyone who has dissected this thing thoroughly. Have you? It's important we understand the changes they are proposing before appearing at a meeting waving our arms around.

It seems that everyone is all paranoid over this, but no one seems to know why. I am sure there are bad things happening and they want more control over where the public uses public lands, but some details would be nice. Reading that document is like reading the tax laws.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I would come prepared to object to specific proposed line items... I'm continuing my research and will post updates as they become available.
 

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I would come prepared to object to specific proposed line items... I'm continuing my research and will post updates as they become available.
Yes. That's my whole point. Hopefully someone that knows how to read this crap can give a bullet-list so we're all on the same page across the state. If people understand what's really happening here they will show up in good numbers. Otherwise, it'll be an empty room and they win hands down.

I'll get my club involved bigtime here in Vancouver if I can show them what they're protesting about/against.
 

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I don't see any closure of roads or areas that were not in the previous rules. Looks to be just a different way of saying it.
Those of you that are up in arms - show something of note. This, somebody said something about something bad happening, thing people do, just clouds the issue! Geez, get a show on fox.

Here's a section, show me what's wrong with it!!


ROADS AND TRAILS
NEW SECTION
WAC 332-52-400 Managing road and trail use. (1) Who manages road and trail use on department-managed lands? The department manages road and trail use on department-managed lands. The department, or lessee of state land in consultation with the department, may close all of, or portions of, a road or trail for the reasons set forth in WAC 332-52-100.
(2) What types of traffic control measures does the department use on a department-managed road or trail? The department may, at any time:

(a) Establish one-way traffic flow on any road or trail.

(b) Establish use hours and/or seasonal use on any road or trail.

(c) Restrict or prohibit use of a road or trail for the reasons set forth in WAC 332-52-100.

(d) Persons shall comply with the posted traffic control measures on roads and trails.

(3) How do I know where motorized vehicle use is permitted on roads and trails? Motorized vehicle use on roads or trails is controlled through a variety of methods to include signs, gates, berms, trenches, concrete barriers, rocks, stumps or other barriers. Motorized vehicular use on or beyond these signs or barriers is strictly prohibited unless otherwise posted.

(4) What types of recreation uses are permitted on designated trails or department-managed roads?

(a) The department may designate road and trail use by specific recreation activity, e.g., hiking, horseback riding, mountain biking, all-terrain vehicle use, off-road vehicle use, four-wheel vehicle use, and snowmobile.

(b) Persons shall comply with the posted designated recreational use on roads and trails.

(5) Where are motorized and nonmotorized vehicles permitted off-road or off-trail? Persons shall only operate motorized or nonmotorized vehicles off-trail or off-road on lands posted or otherwise designated by the department as open for the designated recreational use.

(6) How do vehicle operators enter or leave a developed recreation facility? Motorized or nonmotorized vehicles shall enter or leave a developed recreation facility only on posted roads or trails.

(7) Any violation of this section is an infraction under chapter 7.84 RCW.


[]
 

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I think this point is the most concerning:

(5) Where are motorized and nonmotorized vehicles permitted off-road or off-trail? Persons shall only operate motorized or nonmotorized vehicles off-trail or off-road on lands posted or otherwise designated by the department as open for the designated recreational use.
So, for example, this might mean going "off-road" or "off-trail" at a place like Reiter (which is pretty much anywhere off of a maintained gravel road, as I understand it) could now be considered technically "illegal" since none of the 4x4 trails are posted or otherwise officially designated for use as such. I know there are some signs up there, and I honestly couldn't tell you what they say right now, but I do know none of the "trails" are signed.

Note that this is pure speculation on my part, both in interpreting the rules as well as what people are most up-in-arms about. I'm just a-guessin', here... :)
 

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Marsh, I think you're perhaps right. I've read and re-read the proposed changes many times, though I need to review more thoroughly the existing regulations.

I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but the proposed regulations -- specifically, the additions in WAC 332-52-205 -- have the consequence that, e.g., organized runs would require permitting. The regulations are a little sloppy here (and possibly unenforceable if not vacuous), but that, and the conditions under which a permit request can properly be refused, are a bit worrisome.

I also find the question-and-answer format wasteful of space and just a little irritating.

-- Paul
 

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If a large day long gathering is planned, say at a trail head or camp area. DNR may require the group to have portapoties before being permited. Seems like a reasonable request.

The real problem is what has happened in the past that has ruined it for us now. People tossing their trash, using convient trees as a toilet, mudding, tearing up roads & trails thats what has incited this need for more control by DNR and other agencies. WE are now reaping what has been sowed before us. I say we work with it the best we can.
 

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I think this point is the most concerning:



So, for example, this might mean going "off-road" or "off-trail" at a place like Reiter (which is pretty much anywhere off of a maintained gravel road, as I understand it) could now be considered technically "illegal" since none of the 4x4 trails are posted or otherwise officially designated for use as such. I know there are some signs up there, and I honestly couldn't tell you what they say right now, but I do know none of the "trails" are signed.

Note that this is pure speculation on my part, both in interpreting the rules as well as what people are most up-in-arms about. I'm just a-guessin', here... :)
What counts as posting here is wider than actual signage on DNR-managed lands. According to WAC 332-52-010:

"Posted" means information displayed on any signs, information boards, kiosks, web sites, maps, or other medium that either allows or prohibits access or specific activities on DNR-managed lands.
-- Paul
 

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If a large day long gathering is planned, say at a trail head or camp area. DNR may require the group to have portapoties before being permited. Seems like a reasonable request.

The real problem is what has happened in the past that has ruined it for us now. People tossing their trash, using convient trees as a toilet, mudding, tearing up roads & trails thats what has incited this need for more control by DNR and other agencies. WE are now reaping what has been sowed before us. I say we work with it the best we can.
I don't think we disagree on this point. Our actions have consequences, for ourselves and others. Further, I agree that very likely the most constructive approach to moving forward here is for all parties to work for an outcome that benefits all instead of uneasy compromises (or worse, putting up an us-against-them front).

Still, there's room for objecting to badly crafted regulation. E.g., according to WAC 332-52-100, the DNR can reject a permit request (or otherwise limit use) in order to, among other things:

(i) Protect public safety, natural resources, or other property.
What in practice does this mean? What exactly (approximately?) counts as protecting public safety, natural resources, or other property? Who in the DNR decides? On the basis of what? Does the basis of rejection need to be disclosed? Can it be appealed? What's a DNR employee to do?

A different sort of case. The regulations appear to require permitting for:

any planned activity on department-managed lands conducted at an agreed upon time and place, such as events advertised to the general public or as a nonprofit club or group event, sponsored by any person. (WAC 332-52-205)
Permits must be submitted at least 60 days in advance. (This might have some chilling effect, I suppose, but folk could certainly adapt. But never mind this.) How do we -- how does anyone -- tell the difference between a planned activity "at an agreed upon time and place" and a bunch of folk who happen to show up at roughly the same place at roughly the same time? Is it a planned run (hence a planned activity requiring a permit) if there's some convoy driving on a trail? How is this supposed to work practically? It's hard to see, initially; but then, what would be the point of erecting and funding a "statewide recreation permits and reservation" system? (This is cited as one of the anticipated benefits of the changes in regulation.)

Anyway, I don't want to miss the good in this. I do want to think about this stuff, so please excuse me if I do some of it in this forum. That way I stand a better chance to learn from you all!

-- Paul
 

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Is anyone here a member of SEMA?

We could sit around all day and try and analyze what this means, but they have lawyers and people who understand all of this and could tell us right away (and provide some assistance if it is a problem).
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
If a large day long gathering is planned, say at a trail head or camp area. DNR may require the group to have portapoties before being permited. Seems like a reasonable request.

The real problem is what has happened in the past that has ruined it for us now. People tossing their trash, using convient trees as a toilet, mudding, tearing up roads & trails thats what has incited this need for more control by DNR and other agencies. WE are now reaping what has been sowed before us. I say we work with it the best we can.
If a reasonable request is that you have hundreds of volunteer hours documented, I believe you need 4 hours per participant for every hour you want to use the trail system, 90 days + notice and $2M in liability insurance for the group. Yea I'd say that is reasonable for a couple guys to use our PUBLIC land for a couple hours of wheeling.

:flame:
 
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