[Sean K.]

Wouldn't a turbo diesel still be next to impossible to stall while idling up an incline? I believe the MOG had the Mercedes 3.0L TD in it and I know the turbo was doing nothing at those RPM's.

No, you can still stall a diesel. I've got a 505 lbs-ft. torque Cummins in my tow rig....you can stall that much easier than I can stall my 140 ft. lbs torque 22re gas engine in the buggy (neither is easy, the buggy is almost impossible), but the difference is my buggy's geared at 265:1.

Sean

 

[jayman]

Jayman, your knowledge of petroleum products amazes me,

I have a B.Sc. Chemical Engineering, and am PE certified. I provide a lot of consulting to the petrochemical industry. If you wish, I could start a new thread explaining how a generic oil refinery actually works.

A lot of folks are understandably not aware of what goes on inside a typical refinery. For example, the consumption of rare earth catalyst metals in the fluidized catalytic cracker unit, and in the catalytic reformer unit. Or the fact an average oil refinery has almost a 1:1 ratio of process water consumption to crude oil consumption

Let me know if you would like me to explain in further detail

Do you think a diesel FJ would be more economic? That potential plus the wicked "luggability" for crawling and 4 wheel torque is what has me dreaming.

I have no doubt if the 3.0 litre inline 4 common rail turbodiesel - a common Toyota motor in the EU - were put into the FJ, you could gain perhaps up to 5 mpg. Is it worth paying upwards of $5,000 for a diesel engine option, to gain perhaps 5 mpg? I can't answer that

Others have already touched on this, but "crawling" is all about gearing. I have driven the 3.0 Toyota turbodiesel overseas, and I doubt it would have enough power to satisfy North American expectations

As an example, the Toyota Yaris, formerly the Toyota Echo, has a 1.5 litre 4 cylinder motor. Folks really put their noses up when they see that little car. In the EU, the base Yaris has a 1 litre 3 cylinder gas motor, an optional 1.3 litre 4 cylinder gas, and a 1.4 turbodiesel.

The 1.5 litre and 1.8 litre gas motors are the "hot rod" motors in the EU. Over here, we consider them to be underpowered economy motors

Like it or not, marketing has created the horsepower wars. I doubt anybody would want a 3.0 litre CRD FJ

 

[jayman]

Well i was asuming that he was refering to U.S. MPG. But he did say it was done in euro testing. Didn't know that euro and U.S. MPG were differnt.

This topic has come up before in other forums, folks wonder why American vehicles get such "poor" fuel economy, compared to those in Canada and the EU.

They fail to realize that official fuel economy testing is a bit of a different cycle compared to the US, especially the new "realistic" numbers. The fact the official numbers in Canada, Australia, and the EU is reported in litres per 100 km, isn't widely known in the US

It's rare to convert from l/100km to MPG, though this is a common practise in the UK. That's where the confusion arises: the stated fuel economy is then always in miles per IMPERIAL gallon. Never in miles per US gallon

Suddenly, that "superb" fuel economy doesn't look so great

 

[FJoel]

I have a B.Sc. Chemical Engineering, and am PE certified. I provide a lot of consulting to the petrochemical industry. If you wish, I could start a new thread explaining how a generic oil refinery actually works.

A lot of folks are understandably not aware of what goes on inside a typical refinery. For example, the consumption of rare earth catalyst metals in the fluidized catalytic cracker unit, and in the catalytic reformer unit. Or the fact an average oil refinery has almost a 1:1 ratio of process water consumption to crude oil consumption

Let me know if you would like me to explain in further detail



I have no doubt if the 3.0 litre inline 4 common rail turbodiesel - a common Toyota motor in the EU - were put into the FJ, you could gain perhaps up to 5 mpg. Is it worth paying upwards of $5,000 for a diesel engine option, to gain perhaps 5 mpg? I can't answer that

Others have already touched on this, but "crawling" is all about gearing. I have driven the 3.0 Toyota turbodiesel overseas, and I doubt it would have enough power to satisfy North American expectations

As an example, the Toyota Yaris, formerly the Toyota Echo, has a 1.5 litre 4 cylinder motor. Folks really put their noses up when they see that little car. In the EU, the base Yaris has a 1 litre 3 cylinder gas motor, an optional 1.3 litre 4 cylinder gas, and a 1.4 turbodiesel.

The 1.5 litre and 1.8 litre gas motors are the "hot rod" motors in the EU. Over here, we consider them to be underpowered economy motors

Like it or not, marketing has created the horsepower wars. I doubt anybody would want a 3.0 litre CRD FJ

I do.

I don't need a particularly powerful or fast truck. Our other car is that 1.5L Echo you touched on...

I still think the 3.0L TD will out tow this 4.0L gasser.

5MPG sounds great to me, and I will pay the $5000 more (only if I have to Toyota, don't get any ideas!)

The longevity of diesel versus gas also comes into play in my mind.

But why more? Diesel's have less crap don't they? Ignition system is practically non-existent (glow plugs at start up only right?)

 

[jayman]

I do.

Ok, I'll start a new thread on how an oil refinery works. I will try to keep it as simple as possible. Any ideas where I should park the thread?

I don't need a particularly powerful or fast truck. Our other car is that 1.5L Echo you touched on

That's good to hear in this era of Hemi This and Horsepower That

I still think the 3.0L TD will out tow this 4.0L gasser.

With appropriate gearing - over/under or splitter - you can get very high tow ratings out of a very low output motor. You'd spend a lot of time rowing gears though

5MPG sounds great to me, and I will pay the $5000 more

Depending on how much you drive, the ROI could be eternity. For example, my FJ is only used to cruise out to my hobby farm. Even if I could go out every weekend, and I can't with work the way it is now, that's no more than 1,200 km a month. Currently I'm putting on 600km a month

The longevity of diesel versus gas also comes into play in my mind.

I think that's more of an urban legend, although it's true of HD motors from Cummins, Detroit, Cat, etc. Seems every Toyota motor is well built. I have no concerns about the 4.0 V6 lasting a long time

But why more? Diesel's have less crap don't they? Ignition system is practically non-existent (glow plugs at start up only right?)

Modern controls with electronic common rail diesel direct injection, DPF's, etc. For example, even with the same trim level, the Yaris in the UK is about 2,000 pounds cheaper - almost $4,000 Cdn - with the 1.0 litre 3 cylinder gasser vs the 1.4 CRD. Rated average fuel economy is within 5 miles per Imperial gallon

 

[FJoel]

Ok, I'll start a new thread on how an oil refinery works. I will try to keep it as simple as possible. Any ideas where I should park the thread?

Misc technical discussion! :rocker: I love to learn.

That's good to hear in this era of Hemi This and Horsepower That

The Echo is a comfortable, zippy little car. I got the 5MT in it as well. It takes a tank once a month (we use it mostly for very local stuff only), and I have no doubt it will run for many many years. My only regret is not getting the A/C, but we'd only need it two months and it would hurt the mileage.

With appropriate gearing - over/under or splitter - you can get very high tow ratings out of a very low output motor. You'd spend a lot of time rowing gears though

As this thread has proved, I am not very versed in gearing. I have taken gear theory in school, know the terms, can cut basic gears, and can do all the math etc, but I don't know what an over/under or splitter is. ?

Depending on how much you drive, the ROI could be eternity. For example, my FJ is only used to cruise out to my hobby farm. Even if I could go out every weekend, and I can't with work the way it is now, that's no more than 1,200 km a month. Currently I'm putting on 600km a month

Mine has about 60,000 km on it already. We use it for trips, camping, and my daily driver (for now, looking for something a little more economic... but the FJ stays!!!!)

I think that's more of an urban legend, although it's true of HD motors from Cummins, Detroit, Cat, etc. Seems every Toyota motor is well built. I have no concerns about the 4.0 V6 lasting a long time

I agree. I have atleast 3 Toyota engines here in great running condition, where two exceed 300,000 and one must be close (have to check the ODO). Still I think the Toyota diesel will make 500,000 before needing much. We generally find at 300,000 a rebuild is nice. Not usually needed, but nice.

Modern controls with electronic common rail diesel direct injection, DPF's, etc. For example, even with the same trim level, the Yaris in the UK is about 2,000 pounds cheaper - almost $4,000 Cdn - with the 1.0 litre 3 cylinder gasser vs the 1.4 CRD. Rated average fuel economy is within 5 miles per Imperial gallon

So which one gets more MPG? The diesel? :browsmiley:

 

[jayman]

Misc technical discussion!

Ok, will try to get started on that tomorrow and let you know where it is. I'll be leaving Monday on another business trip, back in a week or so

The Echo is a comfortable, zippy little car. I got the 5MT in it as well.

For its size and what you need from it, the Echo/Yaris is a good car.

what an over/under or splitter is.

Like a 10 speed in a medium duty truck, you "split" the gears to achieve 10 forward speeds. Doesn't mean you need *all* 10 speeds, it's common to "skip" a shift

The bolt on unit I'm familiar with is this one

Gear Vendors under/overdrive transmissions the most awarded auxiliary transmissions.

I know a few folks back in Utah who put them in early 1980's vintage "A" and "B" motorhomes. An average 4 MPG gain, and much better performance especially at Interstate speeds

Mine has about 60,000 km on it already.

Mine has almost 20,000 km on it, but that is due to driving my Dad down to Mayo Clinic in Rochester 4 times last year, and already once this year. The Prius is much too low to the ground for him to comfortably get into. Most elderly folks have a hard time with a vehicle too low to the ground

So which one gets more MPG? The diesel? :browsmiley:

In the EU, the Yaris CRD averages almost 5 mpg more. The diesel motor in the EU is actually cost effective, as diesel fuel is *much* lower in price than petrol. I rented the 3 cylinder gasser, and was satisfied with it's performance. It's not a hot rod, but if the same 1 litre 3 cylinder motor were offered here, you'd probably gain 15 mpg over the 1.5 litre 4 cylinder

The 3 cylinder is obviously a small motor, there is an acre of empty space under the hood. Oil changes are almost brainless

 

[5150 Cruiser]

I do.

I don't need a particularly powerful or fast truck.

You might not, but most people don't want a vehisle that takes over 11 seconds to accelerate to 60. Add in the wieght of bigger tires, bumper skid plates and that time just increases. And in my opinion, that can be quite scary getting on the freeway. I don't want to have to floor it every time i need to pass someone, or am getting on the freeway.

I still think the 3.0L TD will out tow this 4.0L gasser.

while i'm sure the added torque would be helpful, its not a matter of power that limits the FJ's towing capability. Its the wheel base and weight that are the major factors.

5MPG sounds great to me, and I will pay the $5000 more (only if I have to Toyota, don't get any ideas!)

But you also need to realise that diesels also have much high mantance cost on top of the higher initial cost,as well as the higher cost of fuel.

 

[jayman]

Misc technical discussion!

Ok, I actually put it here:

http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/foru...om/forums/off-topic-discussion/63672-crude-oil-where-comes-how-its-refined.html

 

[Sean K.]

But you also need to realise that diesels also have much high mantance cost on top of the higher initial cost,as well as the higher cost of fuel.

Again, I don't really agree. Ya, they require more oil generally when you do the change, but for me, it's a wash b/c Rotella is cheaper than Mobil 1 that I run in my gassers. Filters? About the same. I run Mobil 1 or K&N in the gassers and the Cummins in the Dodge. I change every 3-4K miles regardless of gas or diesel b/c oil is cheaper than an engine and it's cheap insurance to change it out.

Yes, there's two batteries in the diesel, and fuel filters have to be changed more often than with gas by a very large percentage....but it's the easiest filter change I've EVER seen. Air filters are about the same.

The main difference here is: a Cummins 3/4T 4x4 is a bigger diesel. A smaller diesel like they'd put in the FJC, would likely only have one battery and wouldn't have a engine oil or coolant capacity like a 3/4T (1T is the same) primarily towing vehicle...so likely, the capacity differences would be more like a normal gas powered FJ.

Besides, if Toyota builds the diesel properly (and judging by the past performance of the 2LT diesel they used to sell here in the States)....there's probably less chance of breakage of anything related to the diesel than in the gasser just b/c the diesels are overbuilt from the factory to handle the additional stress from the increase torque.

JMO though....YMMV.

Sean

 

[5150 Cruiser]

Again, I don't really agree. Ya, they require more oil generally when you do the change, but for me, it's a wash b/c Rotella is cheaper than Mobil 1 that I run in my gassers. Filters? About the same. I run Mobil 1 or K&N in the gassers and the Cummins in the Dodge. I change every 3-4K miles regardless of gas or diesel b/c oil is cheaper than an engine and it's cheap insurance to change it out.

Sean,
While i see your initial point, remeber that your purchasing your filters in a bundle from a cummin's dealer, and not dodge whitch as wev'e already touched on makes ahuge differnce in cost. The average person isn't going to buy oil/air filter in a case of a dozen. And its also your choice to run K&N oil filter and use moblie 1 synthetic oil. Not a requirement. (I'm guessing. The only vehicles i know off the top of my head are Corvette's and GTO's). Many manufactures (Including diesels) say you can go 5K on an oil change, but i completely agree with you on changing your oil (espeacailly on ahard working diesel)at 3 to 4K interals. The added security is defenatly worth it.

Yes, there's two batteries in the diesel, and fuel filters have to be changed more often than with gas by a very large percentage....but it's the easiest filter change I've EVER seen. Air filters are about the same.

Your probbly right about the the FJ only having one battery vs. 2. But the 4.5 in the LC70 series does have a dual battery setup, but it is condidered a "Full size truck" over seas. You've already touched that fuel filters need to be changed more often, and in some diesels there's more than one, but not all diesels are going to be as easy to change as your cummins. For one, you have probbly one of the most easiest diesel trucks to maintain, also keep in mind to that your truck is a 97" i believe? Mantaince cost aren't going to be the same as an 08, not to meantion the ease of performing the mantaince. Again, with the exception of the ford 6.0 and 6.4, the ease of changing an air filter should be the same as a gasser, but if its a conventional air filter, your going to change it alot more than a gasser.

The main difference here is: a Cummins 3/4T 4x4 is a bigger diesel. A smaller diesel like they'd put in the FJC, would likely only have one battery and wouldn't have a engine oil or coolant capacity like a 3/4T (1T is the same) primarily towing vehicle...so likely, the capacity differences would be more like a normal gas powered FJ.

I agree that the engine capacities of a toyota diesel in the FJ won't be near a 3/4 ton truck, but generally all diesels of a simular displacment have more fluild capasities than there gasser counterparts. Even the TDI in VW's have slightly higher fluid capacities than the 2.0.

Besides, if Toyota builds the diesel properly (and judging by the past performance of the 2LT diesel they used to sell here in the States)....there's probably less chance of breakage of anything related to the diesel than in the gasser just b/c the diesels are overbuilt from the factory to handle the additional stress from the increase torque.

JMO though....YMMV.

Sean

Your probbly right. Although i have no doubt that if propperly maintained the 4.0 in my FJ will go 300K. My girlfriends mothers camery is at 260K with no major problems. My moms solara had 220 before her tranny went out.

If toyota does put a diesel in the FJ, or any of there compacts pickup/suv's, i'm sure it will go past that mark easy with the propper care. Only time will tell though with emmisions getting stricter and stricter and diesel manufactuers trying make thier engines with more and more power. Hopefully toyota will learn from the big three's mistakes (One of the few advantages of coming inot the diesel game late, at least in the north american market).

I really do hope that toyota is reading this. Although it may sound like it, i'm really not anti diesel, nor am i against toyota putting a diesel in the FJ. I just trying to be realistic and don't want them to make the same mistake that Chrysler did with the liberty. If toyota can give us an honest fuel effiecent, 50 state leagal (Thats probbly the biggest hurdle), with power and acceleration numbers simular to the 4.0 (I don't want a truck that takes 11 seconds to get to 60),and can start TRAINING THEIR TECHS NOW HOW TO PROPPERLY WORK ON DIESELS, then i myself would strongly concider one myself in the coming years. The attitude i'm seeing from many here who want a diesel Fj is as long as they put a diesel in it, any diesel...then they'll be happy. I seriously doubt that will be the case once they see the real short comings of a power plant that doesn't live up to the expectations of what a diesel engine should. (case in point the Jeep liberty) If your going to do it, then lets do it right the first time. :clap:

 

[jayman]

TRAINING THEIR TECHS NOW HOW TO PROPPERLY WORK ON DIESELS

Considering how easy it is for an inexperienced/doofus tech to really FUBAR a Prius hybrid, that is a *very* tall order! I sure wouldn't want to be the guinea pig either

 

[5150 Cruiser]

Considering how easy it is for an inexperienced/doofus tech to really FUBAR a Prius hybrid, that is a *very* tall order! I sure wouldn't want to be the guinea pig either

This is amatter that really does concern me though if toyota does in fact put a diesel in the FJ or Tundra. In the event that somthing does in fact go wrong(Andin the first production year, thats almost certain) then we have to rely on technicians that have no experiance on working on diesel engines. While its not rocket science, being a tech for ford , as well as for chevy i can tell you not everyone can grassp the concept on how a diesel works and how to propperly diagnos one with problems. With diesls having more and more technology in them, it just gets harder every year.
I realise that its next to impossible to stat training there techs right this second since production engines aren't out yet, i really do hope that toyota is looking into some kind of training within the next year.

 

[Woodsman]

As far as justifying a turbo diesel, I'd like to recommend that you look at it a different way. As an example: I have been shopping for a turbo diesel pickup, either late model used or new, and have found that a diesel pickup normally has a resale at least $5-6K more than the gasser. Since, $5-6K is about what the diesel option was in the first place I look at it as if the diesel option justifies itself by giving you that much more resale value. Of course, this view only applies if you plan to replace your vehicle every so many years. However, if you justify your diesel based on the higher resale, it basically makes the money saved due to better mileage "found money". In addition, during your time of ownership, you get the benefits of more power and better towing.

 

[Sean K.]

Sean,
While i see your initial point, remeber that your purchasing your filters in a bundle from a cummin's dealer, and not dodge whitch as wev'e already touched on makes ahuge differnce in cost. The average person isn't going to buy oil/air filter in a case of a dozen. And its also your choice to run K&N oil filter and use moblie 1 synthetic oil. Not a requirement. (I'm guessing. The only vehicles i know off the top of my head are Corvette's and GTO's). Many manufactures (Including diesels) say you can go 5K on an oil change, but i completely agree with you on changing your oil (espeacailly on ahard working diesel)at 3 to 4K interals. The added security is defenatly worth it.




Your probbly right about the the FJ only having one battery vs. 2. But the 4.5 in the LC70 series does have a dual battery setup, but it is condidered a "Full size truck" over seas. You've already touched that fuel filters need to be changed more often, and in some diesels there's more than one, but not all diesels are going to be as easy to change as your cummins. For one, you have probbly one of the most easiest diesel trucks to maintain, also keep in mind to that your truck is a 97" i believe? Mantaince cost aren't going to be the same as an 08, not to meantion the ease of performing the mantaince. Again, with the exception of the ford 6.0 and 6.4, the ease of changing an air filter should be the same as a gasser, but if its a conventional air filter, your going to change it alot more than a gasser.



I agree that the engine capacities of a toyota diesel in the FJ won't be near a 3/4 ton truck, but generally all diesels of a simular displacment have more fluild capasities than there gasser counterparts. Even the TDI in VW's have slightly higher fluid capacities than the 2.0.



Your probbly right. Although i have no doubt that if propperly maintained the 4.0 in my FJ will go 300K. My girlfriends mothers camery is at 260K with no major problems. My moms solara had 220 before her tranny went out.

If toyota does put a diesel in the FJ, or any of there compacts pickup/suv's, i'm sure it will go past that mark easy with the propper care. Only time will tell though with emmisions getting stricter and stricter and diesel manufactuers trying make thier engines with more and more power. Hopefully toyota will learn from the big three's mistakes (One of the few advantages of coming inot the diesel game late, at least in the north american market).

I really do hope that toyota is reading this. Although it may sound like it, i'm really not anti diesel, nor am i against toyota putting a diesel in the FJ. I just trying to be realistic and don't want them to make the same mistake that Chrysler did with the liberty. If toyota can give us an honest fuel effiecent, 50 state leagal (Thats probbly the biggest hurdle), with power and acceleration numbers simular to the 4.0 (I don't want a truck that takes 11 seconds to get to 60),and can start TRAINING THEIR TECHS NOW HOW TO PROPPERLY WORK ON DIESELS, then i myself would strongly concider one myself in the coming years. The attitude i'm seeing from many here who want a diesel Fj is as long as they put a diesel in it, any diesel...then they'll be happy. I seriously doubt that will be the case once they see the real short comings of a power plant that doesn't live up to the expectations of what a diesel engine should. (case in point the Jeep liberty) If your going to do it, then lets do it right the first time. :clap:

Ya, but if you knew you could get it cheaper by the case (and you planned to keep the vehicle for a while) wouldn't it be stupid NOT to buy in bulk or at wholesale? There are plenty of Toyota dealers that sell at wholesale over the internet. It will be no different with a diesel Yota.

My truck is an 02. There's no reason why Toyota wouldn't design an easy to change fuel filter....in fact, over the years of owning lots of makes of vehicles, Toyota usually has made the common wear or change items easier than other makes to get to.

How often are you changing your air filters in your gassers? I run in a lot of dust....I usually change both diesel and gas at 12K if they warrant it.....but it's usually 25-30K. About the same for both.

Again, slightly different in terms of capacity is what I'm getting at. Is a few bucks more a huge difference for you? It's not for me.

Sean

 

[Dissident]

I was originally planning on getting a diesel Honda fRidgeline when it came out in a couple of years, but ended up with the FJ unexpectedly....

The thing I liked about diesel it the possibility of making your own biodiesel; you can make it for ~$0.50-0.75 a gallon if you can get waste veggie oil for free (my neighbor's own a mexican restaurant; check!). And you can run that without any mods to the vehicle whatsoever.

Or you can spend a couple grand on engine mods and then run straight veggie oil without having to convert the oil to bio-d, but not sure that's worth it, especially if you have to try and get any warranty work done.

 

[RoverGGM]

Toyota developing clean-diesel V8 for Tundra/Sequoia - Autoblog

 

[Woodsman]

The thing I liked about diesel it the possibility of making your own biodiesel; you can make it for ~$0.50-0.75 a gallon if you can get waste veggie oil for free (my neighbor's own a mexican restaurant; check!). And you can run that without any mods to the vehicle whatsoever.

Or you can spend a couple grand on engine mods and then run straight veggie oil without having to convert the oil to bio-d, but not sure that's worth it, especially if you have to try and get any warranty work done.

Don't plan on running pure bio in any new diesels. None of the manufacturers will allow more than 20% (and some only allow 5%) without voiding the warranty and the high pressure injectors may not allow it if you try. Go for something old with mechanical injectors if you want to play with pure bio.

In addition, I here lots of folks talking about running pure bio but you'd better have a source with an agreement in writing because there are already lots of folks doing this and there are businesses set up with agreements to take away much of the veggie oil that the restaurants dispose of (especially in the cities).

 

[Dissident]

Don't plan on running pure bio in any new diesels. None of the manufacturers will allow more than 20% (and some only allow 5%) without voiding the warranty and the high pressure injectors may not allow it if you try. Go for something old with mechanical injectors if you want to play with pure bio.

Everything I've read says that pure diodiesel (NOT SVO, or straight veggie oil) will work just fine in any diesel motor. the SVO is much more viscous and requires different injectors and glow plugs, OR some people run two tanks, but that is NOT the same thing as biodiesel.

 

[Woodsman]

Everything I've read says that pure diodiesel (NOT SVO, or straight veggie oil) will work just fine in any diesel motor. the SVO is much more viscous and requires different injectors and glow plugs, OR some people run two tanks, but that is NOT the same thing as biodiesel.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, B5 - B20 is acceptable depending on the brand. I could have swore you said you were planning to make your own using waste vegetable oil. I don't quite understand how you will make anything other than SVO when your only input is SVO. What am I missing ?